Open letter to the LED industry

[YoungREEFA]

So vannity is right?

 

[Vannpytt]

.......after 7 pages I figured I would have learned something useful, but alas, no. Too much bickering going on to be a useful, productive discussion, come on people.

I have learned so much from these two posts I have quoted. It helps to understand where the "first gen" LED fixtures have fallen short.

There is just so much contrast in this thread and these two remarks. I think Pacific Sun has shared and been uttermost generous with information here.

Jamie (Vertex) and Reefbreeders are here to call people morons instead of actually contributing (and they are basically selling the same product). Not that it's related to this thread, but whats really the difference from your point of view? Why pay premium for a Vertext fixture that is precisely the same? As far as I can tell, neither of them drive innovation. Piggybacking trends is more like it.

I've learned very much from this thread this far.

 

[Vannpytt]

So vannity is right?

In terms of "white" LEDs being garbage, yes. In terms of them killing corals, no evidence either way, though my argument still hold water. You will need to radiometric spectrum adapt the corals, if it's even possible. I do not know of anyone running their white LEDs at full power and having success with Acropora or coraline algae.

That said, it's very likely that the corals living 15-20m below surface don't like the yellow/red at all.

 

[gcarroll]

That said, it's very likely that the corals living 15-20m below surface don't like the yellow/red at all.

From what I have read, I have to strongly disagree. Really we are talking about zooxanthellae and it's light requirements. It's an algae. From everything that I have been told and read, the spectrum is not as important as you are making it out to be. It can absorb energy from a wide range of the spectrum.

From and article by Dana Riddle and Miguel Olaizola

"Estimating the spectral requirements of zooxanthellae is not particularly easy. Zooxanthellae contain various photosynthetic pigments, including chlorophyll A, chlorophyll C2, the carotenoid peridinin and perhaps others (all of which may be in varying proportions due to the photoadaptive capabilities of zooxanthellae). However, researchers have established the quality of light absorbed by these pigments and we can safely assume certain wavelengths are required.

Figure 1 demonstrates the light energy harvested by zooxanthellae isolated from the stony coral Favia, in a chart called an "action spectrum." An action spectrum describes the relative effectiveness of energy at different wavelengths in producing particular biochemical or biological responses (such as oxygen evolution, carbon uptake, electron transport rate, etc., during photosynthesis).

To believe that blue (430-480 nm) and red (600- 700 nm) wavelengths are required is only partially true. As Figure 1 demonstrates, a wide range of wavelengths are absorbed by chlorophylls A and C2; however, peridinin and perhaps other photopigments, effectively harvest light energy outside of the range normally associated with photosynthesis.

Researchers have addressed light quality and its effects on zooxanthellae and coral growth. Perhaps the most interesting is a paper by Kinzie et al. (1984); they presented evidence that corals grown more rapidly under blue and white light of the same intensities (~12% of solar Photosynthetically Active Radiation - PAR, ~250 µMols·m2·sec, or 10,000 lux) than under "green" or "red" light of equal intensities. These scientists used clear or colored acrylic filters and natural sunlight. The blue filter transmitted wavelengths of ~ 400 to 500 nm and the clear filter (transmission quality not shown in the paper) likely was a fair representation of sunlight (although most acrylics attenuate all wavelengths but tend to decrease violet and blue disproportionately). "Blue" light is suggested to have some rather "magical" properties - it has been noted to increase rates of protein synthesis in some algae, as well as cause shifts in photosynthetic pigment concentrations in zooxanthellae. Blue light has also been reported to increase rates of photosynthesis (Kinzie and Hunter, 1987). Are spectral characteristics of "blue" metal halide lamps sufficient to promote photosynthesis more efficiently in zooxanthellae of captive corals?

Unfortunately, the spectral qualities of light transmitted by these researchers' filters only faintly resemble those of lights used over aquaria. It is a leap of faith to apply the results obtained under filtered sunlight to artificial light sources, which have spectral spikes. However, this has not stopped many from interpreting that higher Kelvin lamps are best for promoting photosynthesis in corals."

 

[zachts]

In terms of "white" LEDs being garbage, yes. In terms of them killing corals, no evidence either way, though my argument still hold water. You will need to radiometric spectrum adapt the corals, if it's even possible. I do not know of anyone running their white LEDs at full power and having success with Acropora or coraline algae.

That said, it's very likely that the corals living 15-20m below surface don't like the yellow/red at all.

I do, and have, in my frag tank, both grown acropora and coraline algae with the following mix all running on a single string, color is IMHO acceptable and growth is good, need more total chips for best growth, but under test conditions coral is growing(despite neglecting the holy heck out of this tank). 6voilet, 2blue, 2royalblue, 2 5000k white, 2 high CRI 2700k white. illuminating one half of a 55gal. and growing sps near the upper 8", LPS and soft coral grow at the bottom, this is with only 14 LEDs and no optics run at 1000mA.

the KEY as with any LIGHT source or new coral is to acclimate the coral slowly to it's new light. JUST like people they will burn if exposed to light they are not accustomed to. (this is over simplified but thinking of it this way works for the most part unless you get into the really technical "weeds" of the discussion)

the "bad" or "crap" spectrum's of light are only detrimental when they are applied to a coral either in excess of what that coral is genetically able to adapt to, OR if applied too quickly that the coral does not have time to gradually build its tolerance to the new spectrum (just like getting you sun tan at the beginning of summer, it's the same concept) Optics make this more drastic as they do NOT in almost all applications over a reef tank, apply the light evenly and create HOT spots where there may indeed be too much of a particular light spectrum for coral to survive.

I hope we can get this conversation back to what we want to see from the LED industry in the future.

Personally I see little hope of White LEDs being tailored to our hobby needs anytime soon due to the cost of production relative to the industry demand.

on the other hand in the short term I see a very bright future for REMOTE PHOSPHOR applications being developed for our uses. very low cost of production to get custom blended white light source compared to creating a custom LED chip. Since Blue LED's are readily available as an industry standard this seems a logical way for manufacturers to start easily catering to our needs, hint, hint, hint...........

 

[nickdo]

From what I have read, I have to strongly disagree. Really we are talking about zooxanthellae and it's light requirements. It's an algae. From everything that I have been told and read, the spectrum is not as important as you are making it out to be. It can absorb energy from a wide range of the spectrum.

From and article by Dana Riddle and Miguel Olaizola

I think it was explained by PS RD previous posts, the coral place in shallow area is brown(full of zooxanthellae) and it's benefited from fast growing. Shallow area(more "full spectrum") encourage zooxanthellae production as the diagram you showed, but it need to be placed under deep water to regain coral's colors before selling.

 

[gcarroll]

I do not know of anyone running their white LEDs at full power and having success with Acropora or coraline algae.

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Greg Carroll. I was trying to show you my AI Nano lit frag tank but it's hard to see beyond all the coraline algae.

Should I get jrpdriver to introduce himself too?

 

[sirreal63]

I think it was explained by PS RD previous posts, the coral place in shallow area is brown(full of zooxanthellae) and it's benefited from fast growing. Shallow area(more "full spectrum") encourage zooxanthellae production as the diagram you showed, but it need to be placed under deep water to regain coral's colors before selling.

Colorful corals can be found in shallow water and brown corals can be found in deep water. A couple minutes on google images will clearly show that.

 

[nickdo]

Colorful corals can be found in shallow water and brown corals can be found in deep water. A couple minutes on google images will clearly show that.

You can found red Pocillopora that contain DsRed. Can you find some rainbow color corals?

Zooxanthellae studies/researchs may not suit for SPS, because SPS that full of zooxanthellae = browned?

For SPS, in zeo system, less zooxanthellae = color pop.

For LPS, less zooxanthellae = lose color? but we can't found nice color LPS in shallow water. Do those Zooxanthellae studies really suit for those deep water species? Especially those species never use full spectrum light in its natural environment.

I know some LPS experts who only use blue/actinic tubes to keep deep water aussie LPS(like acan). It's hard to keep those coral's original sharp color and prevent color-shift with other lighting methods.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

@gcarrol
I think that we misunderstood a little bit and we talk about two slightly different things.
I know exactly what you mean and you're absolutely right.
Algae can absorb light in a wide range of the spectrum.
Note, however, the key word - "they can absorb."
This does not mean that the necessary processes of glucose (simplified) MUST get the full spectrum.
For symbiotic algae matters the amount of energy delivered at a specific time. Of course - the radiation MUST be in the range from which they are able to absorb light.
So here we are in agreement, right?
If, however, does not cover the light spectrum of reds - and is so intense in the range of 400-520nm that cover the energy demand of these algae - that you think that they will "work" in the wrong way?
I do not ...
Above all - this is what I wrote above is a reference to pigments contained in the tissues of the coral and not the symbiotic algae.
It is due to pigments corals are beautifully colored - from blue through green and red.
This does not guarantee the color of the coral zooksantele - but only a "contrast" color that we see.
Less algae - the color is lighter (pastel) - more algae - the darker color (color pigment is "covered" by the algae)
At the end I can only use the argument that it is in what I wrote above.
If many species of coral at depths GROWING where it reaches the red color (they are residual quantities of orange), and has at the same time beautiful color (which, unfortunately, sometimes we can only see the coral pulled to the surface - where there is the red color, which can be reflected by the pigment) - it seems to me that it means - that the spectrum ranges we are talking about (hot) it is not necessary - nor height, nor to stain - and the only people you need us - to our imperfect eyes have seen the color (already fish see 4 colors - and we are only 3 )
At the end I can only use the argument that it is in what I wrote above.
If many species of coral at depths GROWING where it reaches the red color (there are residual amounts of orange), and has at the same time beautiful color (which, unfortunately, sometimes we can only see the coral pulled to the surface - where there is the red color, which can be reflected by the pigment) - it seems to me that it means - that the spectrum ranges we are talking about (hot) it is not necessary - nor height, nor to stain - and the only people you need us - to our imperfect eyes have seen the color (already fish see 4 colors - and we are only 3 )
On the Internet there are many charts excitation / emission for different pigments - either from the GFP and DsRed.
You can follow which light is "constructs" that color (pigment in the tissues of the coral)
Please take a look at the table below which are gathered the most common pigments responsible for the "warm" colors of corals (and an example of how koralowcu there - and what color we "seeis ")
There is no pigment which would require OVER 600 nm radiation (absorption).

It can therefore confirm that for the proper pigmentation of corals red light is not required (or warm white LEDs that) .. It can be use by symbiotic algae(Chl_a, Chl_b) - but its not used by pigments in coral skin.

 

[Vannpytt]

From what I have read, I have to strongly disagree. Really we are talking about zooxanthellae and it's light requirements. It's an algae. From everything that I have been told and read, the spectrum is not as important as you are making it out to be. It can absorb energy from a wide range of the spectrum.

Most of your "evidence" in this post is scientific speculations in those cases where it's not conclusive that blue light is more beneficial. There is more observations to the opposite. The LEDs are not a "white" light source. They are yellow. Are you going to find proof that red light penetrates 10m of water also? Until the "discovery" of blue lightbulbs, there was no growing advanced corals from what I gather in the litterature.

Does anyone know how much relative intensity yellow/red has on 10-15m?

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/02/yzadu5em.jpg
Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Greg Carroll. I was trying to show you my AI Nano lit frag tank but it's hard to see beyond all the coraline algae.

Should I get jrpdriver to introduce himself too?

First of all, you where trying to show your AI Nano frag tank. I fixed your tag; - Now, stop instigating. Tell us what settings and colors you run your AI Nano. The scientific part is already covered by Pacific Sun, and there is no arguing that with posting a picture of your frag tank. You actually have the same as me, green coraline instead of proper purple. What is the reason for this? I suspect it is from a larger amount of yellow spectrum. I didn't see any of your frags, but I suspect the colors are "below par". Please do post a picture.

I do, and have, in my frag tank, both grown acropora and coraline algae with the following mix all running on a single string, color is IMHO acceptable and growth is good, need more total chips for best growth, but under test conditions coral is growing(despite neglecting the holy heck out of this tank). 6voilet, 2blue, 2royalblue, 2 5000k white, 2 high CRI 2700k white. illuminating one half of a 55gal. and growing sps near the upper 8", LPS and soft coral grow at the bottom, this is with only 14 LEDs and no optics run at 1000mA.

Which violet LEDs did you get that run 1000mA? Out of 14 LEDs you have 4 "white". This is acceptable out of this few LEDs, and running no optics will greatly reduce the "white" LEDs effect on the spectrum, more so than the blue chips (but increase the photometric spectrum which is what you want out of your white LEDs) because of wavelength penetration in water.

This is actually the same experience I had on my first generation LEDs. Remove the optics and add violet. This alone will make them vastly better ime.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

Does anyone know how much relative intensity yellow/red has on 10-15m?

It looks like below 10m there is no light with wavelenght ca. 650-660nm.

 

[toky916]

Like the charts !

 

[sirreal63]

You can found red Pocillopora that contain DsRed. Can you find some rainbow color corals?

Zooxanthellae studies/researchs may not suit for SPS, because SPS that full of zooxanthellae = browned?

For SPS, in zeo system, less zooxanthellae = color pop.

Most flash photography is done with 6500k Tungsten lamps, which enhances color. The corals that appear brown often look very different under aquarium lighting.
If you took the corals from these photo's and put them in your tank, would they look the same?

Our lighting enhances color, here are a few pics of Zeo corals out of water, and in water, note the differences. Take just about any sps out of your tank and see if the color still "pops" or if it is brown. Very few sps will look the same out of water, in the ocean and in our tanks.


Those same corals in the tank...what changed? The corals, no, the lighting changed.



I may have missed the point of this thread, but to me it seems the goal is to create an LED light that grows and consistently shows the colors of the corals we are accustomed to, not re-create the look of corals under the sun at varying depths. There is very little correlation to how corals look in the ocean and how they look in our tanks. Every coral we put in our tanks is now a shallow water coral. Some people have had great success in creating stunning corals under LED's, many have not. I am neither for or against LED lighting. It is still evolving and that is a good thing.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

@sirreal
Thank you for very interesting discuss.
Almost all corals which you posted on photos(in shallow water) - like that purple A. hummilis dont have GFP proteins - but rather DsRed and other non-fluoroscent proteins..
You have to agree also, that most of them is brown/cream and similar color variations.. ;-)
The same result will be if you will place corals under 6500K light(which can be called "full spectrum light" in comparision to 20.000K metal halide).
Under 6500K - they will go brown(but growth will be very fast - because algae will have "perfect" full spectrum... Under 20.000K(which is half/cutted) - they will increase their pigments to "get" proper amoutn of energy from light)
Please take a look for some corals in our test tanks which are lighted by LED lamps(some of them - by combo units). Overal light spectrum is blue, there is no red light/warm light - but corals can build proper pigments, isnt true?

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

next few photos:

 

[sirreal63]

Yes, they do look brown, as will virtually any sps you take out of your tank and look at under the sun. Which is why the second set of photos is there, same corals but taken out of the tank, nothing changed with the corals except the light they were shown under and they have that brown hue, and that is a Zeo tank. In your photos of those pale corals, take them out of the tank and photograph them again, will they look the same? That is the point I am doing a poor job of making, you simply cannot look at a coral in the ocean or in the sun and expect it to look the same in your tank. Our lighting should not be an attempt to re-create the sun, the sun does not do justice to the colors of a coral.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

Of course - but that what Im trying to say is, that we cant use continuus warm lighting(which guarantee us proper color renderition) because corals will loose their pigments - will go brown..
What we try to achieve is very difficult - because we have to produce proper light spectrum(for activate and build nice looking pigments) on one end - and from the other - "produce" light whith high CRI - which will not affect that spectrum but will give us abbilities to see that colors...
So - the idea of using non-white led panels is that they cover pigments requirments without producing light which is not needed - and "affect" for our eyes reading of their fluorescence/colors..

 

[sirreal63]

Ok, I understand what you are saying, but is it any different than when people say 6500 or 10K bulbs produce brown corals?

 

[gcarroll]

Most of your "evidence" in this post is scientific speculations in those cases where it's not conclusive that blue light is more beneficial. There is more observations to the opposite. The LEDs are not a "white" light source. They are yellow. Are you going to find proof that red light penetrates 10m of water also?

Just because our wild sps corals are collected at 10 – 15m doesn’t mean they cannot and do not live in shallower water as well. In fact, many of the mariculture facilities today are starting to grow the corals in extremely shallow waters. The only reason wild colonies are harvested from that depth it that it is safer and out of the surf zone. Here in the US, ORA grows their coral in a greenhouse. Their corals look drab and brown under the sun but the corals have beautiful coloration when hit with the blue spectrum that we keep them under. The main reason we no longer use 6500K bulbs for SPS is that they look better under blue light. Nothing more! 5-10 years ago I used to run AB 10k bulbs because I liked the natural color of a shallow reef. The problem was that no one else in the hobby shared my enthusiasm. I started changing my bulbs out to Phoenix 14K bulbs whenever people would come over. The coloration on my tank blew their mind. Today I have grown lazy and just run 20K all the time. Just because the corals on the natural reef looks drab and brown, does not mean that they will look drab in our tanks.

Until the "discovery" of blue lightbulbs, there was no growing advanced corals from what I gather in the litterature.

Not true. 10 years ago, people were still keeping SPS under Iwasaki 6500K bulbs. They grew great and many people I know still swear that if you really want growth, go with the Iwasaki. Problem is now that we have seen the coloration under 20K, we no longer want to see them under the **** colored Iwasaki.

First of all, you where trying to show your AI Nano frag tank. I fixed your tag; - Now, stop instigating. Tell us what settings and colors you run your AI Nano. The scientific part is already covered by Pacific Sun, and there is no arguing that with posting a picture of your frag tank. You actually have the same as me, green coraline instead of proper purple. What is the reason for this? I suspect it is from a larger amount of yellow spectrum. I didn't see any of your frags, but I suspect the colors are "below par". Please do post a picture.

The AI nano runs at 100% for all 3 colors. There is a section on that tanks that has green coralline also, but most of the tank is purple. Where does it state that the proper color of coralline is purple. It comes in many colors. The only thing I have growing in that tank at this time is xenia. Not to mention that I am breaking down the tank, It’s easier to sell it to the LFS for store credit.

I'm not trying to istigate but rather trying to point out how close minded you are. When you suggest that LED fixtures runnig their white LEDs at 100% cannot grow colorful corals, we are suggesting that that is not true. And in light of evidence and photographic proof, you completely ingnore it and blow the person off. Others have tried to join the argument and give proof but they have given up. I however am strong willed and thick skinned. I see that you seem to be passionate about reefing and want the best for our corals. I just recomend that you do more absorbing of knowledge and less repelling. We are all here to share our knowledge. One thing that I have learned, if one person is doing something that you beleive is impossible, you just got to except that it is possible!