PO'd about Zoas

[19jeffro83]

I think the price gouging people speak of is more along the lines of you get what you pay for. If you happy with a frag of 30-50 brown polyps for a price of 20$ go for it. I myself prefer quality over quantity. Ill pay 20-50$ for a couple to a few really nice colorful zoanthids regardless of the name. People pay all sorts of money for tiny little frags of sps that have nice color because they don't want a huge brown ugly colony in their tanks and nicer colored coral isn't as easy to find. It's supply and demand. As far as names I think the help distinguish one morph from another much easier and I'm not opposed at all. If you don't want to pay the high price for "designer" zoanthids, then don't simple as that.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

unfortunately its just like everything else, and will not change. and with that said, if you have fun with your colorful polyps, why cant I with the cartoon names? there is no price on ones enjoyment. i think ongoing threads of this nature seem to just drag on. i feel as if its in the category of tree hugging. sorry but i just cant grasp why people cant just be happy for what they have, no mater what you call it, or what you pay for it. i don't see a gun to anyone's head. just fun,its a hobby, and most of all its fun. you know if i were to get out of anything it would probably start with all forums, i came to RC bc face book wuz a endless echo of complaints, and the biggest lesson i learned wuz it is everywhere.

Chris

Oh but I think it will change, in time.

I don't think anyone here has said you can't or shouldn't have fun with your names. This hobby has something for everyone, some are here for the fun of learning hundreds of names. If that's what does it for you, I think that's great. Hey, I was instrumental in creating the ID sub forum up top.

I disagree with you on the price of one's enjoyment. I am not being smart mouth or rude or disrespectfull in any way when I ask this, but have you read this entire thread? Did you read and click on the links in post # 31, 53, 54, 61, 75, 77, 79, 89, 103, 105 and 113? These threads capsulize the sentiments of thousands of reefers with a different opinion based upon what they saw transpire right here and everywhere around the country at the same time in 05/06. They all have a price and a limit to their enjoyment. Many can't stand to see innocent newbies taken to the bank over worthless polyps they were lied to about.

Did you read of the student I shared who was lied to? Did you read the many links proving that gouging happens? Did you see the links where one person received an entire 20 to 30 polyp frag for the same price of the exact same morph of only 1 or 2 polyps? Names are find, it's the gouging, lies, false claims that came along with names that has caused the problem. Not being smart, but do you see where I, ( we) are coming from?


If you have no problem paying skyhigh prices, that's fine sir, but keep in mind when you do pay those prices, it helps the gougers and chop shoppers and those who immulate them to justify the continued practice of selling at these prices. The only variable which changed this was greed, and you can no longer walk into a LFS or online store and buy more than 15 polyps of anything without paying an arm and a leg unless it's green or brown. I will never accept it and that is my right as you have your right to enjoy names, correct? Reefers are shocked when they read these threads as I have shown right here with numerous examples on the previous pages. They were shocked to know that you could buy every and anything thing you wanted, in any color, on a large rock, 30 to 50 polyps, of anything, with the exception of blues, for $ 40 to $ 50. That's why these types of threads continue to crop up with much support.


With all due respect, I can show you hundreds of threads that can be classified as, "continuing to drag on", but their not. Afford people the opportunity to talk about topics they enjoy and wish to express their opinions in/on. Why is there such an urge by a few to keep trying to block this info? It is not a tree hugging thread my friend, but that was funny.

A lot of reefers refused to pay these prices as they indeed felt that the preverbial gun was being placed to their heads to pay these prices. They collectively sad no, and left the hobby or fled zoas and palys.


Facebook ? LOL, uuggh, never been there, never will, LOL.

Thanks again.

 

[megadeth72]

it's a hipster fad it'll go away when the next hot thing comes along, it's already happening

 

[Chriskid]

yes ive read most of them, and yes people that are taken advantage of is everywhere not just in this hobby. and it is sad but why did they spend hundreds of dollars on polyps? i would speculate they wanted these "rare" polyps for a investment of there own, after they grew 2 or 3 polyps. its like its justified in there own mind as well. still sad non the less, but i always say research, research, research. almost every reefkeeper i know,when they first start, all they see is dollar signs.Also sad. But the constant critisizm of names corals just is a little old(no funny intended).

chris

 

[Slystone]

As a complete newbie, I appreciate the names. Is there a site that discusses the different zoanthids, how common they are, how fast a particular one grows, how big the polyp head actually gets, etc?

 

[MUCHO REEF]

I think the price gouging people speak of is more along the lines of you get what you pay for. If you happy with a frag of 30-50 brown polyps for a price of 20$ go for it. I myself prefer quality over quantity. Ill pay 20-50$ for a couple to a few really nice colorful zoanthids regardless of the name. People pay all sorts of money for tiny little frags of sps that have nice color because they don't want a huge brown ugly colony in their tanks and nicer colored coral isn't as easy to find. It's supply and demand. As far as names I think the help distinguish one morph from another much easier and I'm not opposed at all. If you don't want to pay the high price for "designer" zoanthids, then don't simple as that.

Are you saying that brown polyps are never high quality polyps?

If you choose to pay $ 20 to $ 50 for a total of 2 or 4 colorful polyps at those prices when you could buy 40 to 50 polyps for the exact same price before somebody started naming them, there is something to keep in mind. Now everyone else has to pay those prices because you did. If you stopped paying those prices and no one else purchased them, what do you think would happen?

Supply and Demand ???? It's been dubunked hundreds of times, not applicable here. See post # 77 and this link ..

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-02/ac/index.php


... has some great reading in paragraph #9 on Supply and Demand above. Best explanation I've ever heard.


By Anthony Calfo

"""Things get screwy, though, by the intervention of dubious individuals with misguided business tactics… and they are usually well-connected with fellow hobbyists and potential customers (often in big online communities). These folks tend to be small-time players – trading aquarists or small business merchants – who justify their exorbitant prices with supply and demand. “Supply and demand" is an excuse that gets abused too often and shamelessly, in my opinion. If this were not true, how then would you define or even recognize the existence of price gouging? Seriously, please reread the previous sentences and give them some thought. If you believe that there is any such thing as price gouging, then we must agree on some level that using “supply and demand” to justify inflated prices is not a carte blanche excuse.

For example, after a natural disaster such as a hurricane, do you think that merchants who suddenly raise the prices of bottled water, food and gasoline are “price-gouging?” I do. That’s not a supply and demand issue… it goes far beyond factorable expenses and traditional price points. It exceeds conservative, if not dubious, padding of profit margins to compensate for future dips or lean times. It can be extreme, and it’s unscrupulous. It’s also against the law. It’s not even good business, as it does not forge long-term business relationships. People who get cheated are less likely to continue to do business with the price gougers. Does that surprise anyone? It must not, since there is a continuous stream of perpetrators."""

You see these are the things people want you to believe to justify these skyhigh prices that keep you comeing back time and time again. It's a game, as long as you know it's a game and you continue then that's on you. However there are many others who vehemently disagree.

Using the sps analogy doesn't apply either, I mean, there has been every attempt under the sun made to justify paying more than a dollar or two per polyp for anything. As long as you pay those prices, you will never see pieces from the ocean like you use to.

As I mentioned to Chris, if you already have it in your tank, why the rush to find out the name? You already own it, right?

I don't pay those prices, I haven't purchased a single thing in 4 or 5 years now, I refuse to.


Thanks for the replies, goona go watch some NY celebrations.


Happy New Years.:dance:


Mooch

 

[danimal1211]

As a complete newbie, I appreciate the names. Is there a site that discusses the different zoanthids, how common they are, how fast a particular one grows, how big the polyp head actually gets, etc?

Yes there are sites that discuss the common names of zoanthids, but typically don't describe the size of the polyps. Zoaid.com is a descent database and also describes common predators and pests. However, I would suggest reading the entire thread no one is against common names, many are fed up with the way the common names have been used to lure hobbyists into overpaying for corals all in the name of profit to the point that its difficult to find what are considered common polyps at a decent price.

Polyps are a colonial species and do much better in numbers. Problems with diseases, preditors and pests are an unfortunate side effect of over fragging and a colony of one or two have a much more difficult time maintaining health.

After watching the acan craze a few years ago ebb and wane, I always thought these issues would resolve themselves similarly. But its just as bad (if not worse) than it was when purple hornets were going for several hundred dollars a polyp.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

danimal, you da man, very very well said and so eloquently stated. That is all we are saying. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[MUCHO REEF]

it's a hipster fad it'll go away when the next hot thing comes along, it's already happening

I hear you, it's been a 7 year fad thus far. What changes are you seeing?


MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003

 

[megadeth72]

the last show I was at zooanthids were going for a buck a polyp, there's a few sellers on ebay doing the same thing

the only exception is extremely slow growers

 

[19jeffro83]

Mucho, what would you like more in your tank?

Or this
Like I said you get what you pay for just like all the acro frags. You just have to pay and buck up for nice colors. Simple as that, if its pretty it costs more.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

19jeffro83, how long have you been reefing, and more specifically, how long have you been keeping zoas and palys? I'm being very serious, not rude at all.

To answer your question, I wouldn't want either, as I am not a collector, I'm a reefer. One man's junk is another man's treasure. They are by no means junk, just not something I would consider paying for. I have given many frags of both away for free right here on RC. Both are $ 9 to $ 12 frags if my polyp count is correct. So tell us what you paid for them?

May I ask, have you read every post in this thread?

Have you opened and read every link in this thread?

Your assesment is off track in my opinion, you don't get what you pay for, you're getting less. That is why there are hundreds of threads like this one. I'm thinking your point was that the top frag has more vivid colors, thus it would command a higher price, correct? Do you know if I took the time I could find someone selling the bottom frag as a Ultra, LE, fast growing, Grade A+ from Little Timmy, that he's selling for twice the price of the top frag? It's true, now if you have been convinced by the gougers and chopshoppers that the top frag is something special, they already have you and you will buy whatever they have to offer. This thread is for those who choose not to do that. Why? Both could have been picked from the ocean floor while sitting side by side. Both of these morphs were almost always given away at the swaps for free or for a couple bucks for a frag twice the size of yours. But now, I see a name on 5 polyp frags with someone's name on it selling for more than the mother colony, yes, even for the one with less color my friend.

I think the better question is this. What would you prefer to have in your tank, one of the colonies in these pictures, or a frag the size of your frags, of one of these colonies? Because what's being charged for todays frags, you could have bought an entire colony for near the same price or just a few dollars more before naming which lead to skyhigh prices, price gouging, outright lying and chopshopping which is killing this hobby.

With all due respect, you really should consider reading this thread, I'd love to then discuss it with you.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1941053


MUCHO REEF

 

[19jeffro83]

Mucho, my whole point is pretty things that catch the eye will catch a higher price, just like a diamond gets more than a bland stone. It is what it is. The Diamond next to the chunk of coal will catch the higher price every time. I've been in The hobby almost 5 years now and have been collecting and keeping zoas the same amount of time. It seems you get very upset about this. If you are so lucky to find these pretty little polyps all for the same price than good for you, I'm not as fortunate as you. I usually trade w others to add to my collection and I don't mind putting more out for the nicer polyps. Not just that but the ugly browns and greens spread like weeds while most of the more colorful morphs ime don't grow as quickly either, thus a higher price tag. Being they're not as obtainable. I alsol trade and give a lot and always have, just to spead the love. I'm not in this hobby for an investment, trust me, Ive dumped thousands Into this hobby and yet to see a penny of profit, lol. I trade and give away what could be my "profit". Some of us just know that the finer things in life cost more than the lesser "such as schwag brown polyps" and yes I'll pay more for a better morph of marijuana as well even though its all the same plant. If you want to trade sometime you'll find I'm very fair and not a name whore but at the same time I do see the difference between ugly browns and something like this.

 

[Reeferz412]

I just want to point out I have a tile of zoas that many lfs's down here call "gorilla nipples". Not too sure how that attracts customers but it sure made me laugh.

 

[Chriskid]

Mucho, my whole point is pretty things that catch the eye will catch a higher price, just like a diamond gets more than a bland stone. It is what it is. The Diamond next to the chunk of coal will catch the higher price every time. I've been in The hobby almost 5 years now and have been collecting and keeping zoas the same amount of time. It seems you get very upset about this. If you are so lucky to find these pretty little polyps all for the same price than good for you, I'm not as fortunate as you. I usually trade w others to add to my collection and I don't mind putting more out for the nicer polyps. Not just that but the ugly browns and greens spread like weeds while most of the more colorful morphs ime don't grow as quickly either, thus a higher price tag. Being they're not as obtainable. I alsol trade and give a lot and always have, just to spead the love. I'm not in this hobby for an investment, trust me, Ive dumped thousands Into this hobby and yet to see a penny of profit, lol. I trade and give away what could be my "profit". Some of us just know that the finer things in life cost more than the lesser "such as schwag brown polyps" and yes I'll pay more for a better morph of marijuana as well even though its all the same plant. If you want to trade sometime you'll find I'm very fair and not a name whore but at the same time I do see the difference between ugly browns and something like this.

well said

 

[XSharkboyX]

the ugly browns and greens spread like weeds while most of the more colorful morphs ime don't grow as quickly either, thus a higher price tag. Being they're not as obtainable.

That is a flat out lie... They all grow like weeds. If they are not growing in your tank then you dont know what you are doing. Who ever convinced you that "higher priced/nicer colored" zoas = slower growers is very unintelligent... :lmao: It makes me giggle... Reefers in Europe used to, and still do, throw zoanthids and palythoas away because they grow soo fast in a healthy reef tank. Notice I said reef tank, not frag tank...
The only reason tiny frags take forever to grow is because they get butchered into 1 or 2 polyp frags. People expect them to take right off and flourish when you have severed the tiny colony into tiny pieces. You can't frag a frag. Ever cut your grass too short? It's pretty much the same concept...

This price gouging fad has been an ongoing battle for several years. It is a good thing that people are still discussing it as it sheds light on zoas to some of the newbies. (Pun intended) I'm not really PO'd About Zoas I"m PO'd about the people who ruined zoa keeping. Some people complain that it does nothing to sit around and talk about the problem. While I agree with you to an extent I personally did something about it like some of the other old time true reefers did. I quit.

I got out. I tore down my pride and joy. My reef was gone. I decided that I was no longer going to support or be a part of something that I did not agree with. My passion had been killed overnight by worthless turd sandwiches. Reefing had gone from a hobby to a money making fad. There was nothing I could do about it. Some of you may not agree with my stance or my solution but I really had no choice. I couldn't walk into any LFS anymore and without looking at hefty price tags and named corals/inverts. Online forums were filled up with picture threads that were intended for newbies to pm the posters about purchasing. With price gougers in every corner of the hobby it was becoming very difficult to find decent hobbiests to trade with and discuss reef topics. Yes thats right, we used to discuss reef topics together. The hobby was about soo much more then. There was rarely selling. People gave frags to each other or traded.
AND THE FRAGS.... The frags back then would be considered small colonies now. Even if someone had a rare blue, red or white morph they would take the extra week to grow it out before they cut some off.

I can honestly say, and I think any old school true reefers here (If there are any left) would agree with me that we used to trade polyps then that any price gouger would KILL for now. I can think of at least 10 morphs that I gave away when I tore down my tank that most people have never seen. It's because they have no name... The general public has no idea what rare is... The named polyps that are being offered for sale now are not new or "rare." They are the same morphs that we would give away 10 years ago. :lmao: It blows my mind that people would line up for blocks to spend $100 a polyp for common zoas that had a fresh "name." Better get there fast though, because they are limited edition and they are only offering 1000 single polyp frags this week...

For now I have devoted my time to my other long-time passion of keeping sharks and rays. I may one day come back to reefing, but it will be long after all the price gougers have run everyone off and prices hit rock bottom where they belong. They still only pay the native collector $.25 at best for every colony of zoas he brings up no matter what color they are....


:beer: Cheers

 

[Overgrown]

At the end of the day the only thing that matters is our own respective tanks and what we choose to fill them with. I always find it interesting that those who aren't interested in participating in the named and/or $$ pieces are always the most vocal about the named and /or $$ pieces in which they're not interested in, even to the point of making custom forum signatures about the topic. Lol! The good news is that the solution is utterly simple: Don't pay the prices if that's not what you're into and enjoy your tank!

 

[XSharkboyX]

I always find it interesting that those who aren't interested in participating in the named and/or $$ pieces are always the most vocal about the named and /or $$ pieces in which they're not interested in, even to the point of making custom forum signatures about the topic.

I always found it interesting that those who are for the names and price gouging post pics of tiny little frags or use them as avatars as if they are some prized piece... lololololol

 

[Overgrown]

I always found it interesting that those who are for the names and price gouging post pics of tiny little frags or use them as avatars as if they are some prized piece... lololololol

I simply can't compete with the inordinate amount of lol's and the wildly whimsical Captain Sparrow reference contained in your sig(I try to refrain from more than one lol per thread) You win brother. Let us know when you find some of those Palys at a fish store though. In all seriousness, is the solution to the discusision any more complicated than simply not paying the prices if you don't see the value? There's plenty of cheap frags avail in the hobby!

 

[XSharkboyX]

I simply can't compete with the inordinate amount of lol's and the wildly whimsical Captain Sparrow reference contained in your sig(I try to refrain from more than one lol per thread) You win brother. Let us know when you find some of those Palys at a fish store though. In all seriousness, is the solution to the discusision any more complicated than simply not paying the prices if you don't see the value? There's plenty of cheap frags avail in the hobby!

Big words... From an individual who can't even tell the difference between a zoanthid and a palythoa................ :eek2: LMAO

Just stop already my face hurts from all the laughing!

Wait until you see my next signature... I'm thinking "Schooling Newbs Everyday!" LOL