Poo? Really. POO?! Where did this theory start? I'm calling Shenanigans!

[Winwood]

i read that same article it was in FAMA i believe

Yeah I used to have a subscription to all the ancient texts but couldn't remember which one, could very well have been FAMA.

I believe it is hard to rule out all fish waste not being utilized by SPS. If one goes by the basic biology assumption that at most 10% of food material is utilized in protein synthesis, cell respiration and other bodily functions from one trophic level to the next (taught to me in biology 211), Then there is still a minimum of 90% of potential usable material still available coming out the back end of our fishy friends.

To further this train of thought, if a damselfish living amongst the branches of a head of pocillopora darts into the water column to feed on passing zooplankton and then retreats to it's shelter (the coral), where it then defecates amonst it's branches, it is in a sense condensing the available food closer to the coral where it has a chance to feed on the byproduct of the fish. It may not be first choice for the coral but there cluld still be lots of usable material left in the excrement.

 

[MammothReefer]

I think its clear that SPS wont directly eat fish poop. Maybe some micro processed parts of the poop. In my experience a reef tank with no fish becomes very sterile over time causing poor water conditions. The water becomes to polished and nutrient free. This looks good to our eyes becasue the sand is bright white and there is no algae present but the corals are always pale in color. It seems important to have some waste floating through there to support the eco system in your tank. In contrary to what you are saying I think the right amount of "poo" is the key ingredient to an overall healthy tank. Not to much or to little. Its a balance.

I disagree, you can still feed a fishless tank. You add things like AAs, Oyster feast, cyclops ect ect. You don't need "poop". It's the feeding that is doing it, not the fecal waste.

 

[MammothReefer]

Yeah I used to have a subscription to all the ancient texts but couldn't remember which one, could very well have been FAMA.

I believe it is hard to rule out all fish waste not being utilized by SPS. If one goes by the basic biology assumption that at most 10% of food material is utilized in protein synthesis, cell respiration and other bodily functions from one trophic level to the next (taught to me in biology 211), Then there is still a minimum of 90% of potential usable material still available coming out the back end of our fishy friends.

To further this train of thought, if a damselfish living amongst the branches of a head of pocillopora darts into the water column to feed on passing zooplankton and then retreats to it's shelter (the coral), where it then defecates amonst it's branches, it is in a sense condensing the available food closer to the coral where it has a chance to feed on the byproduct of the fish. It may not be first choice for the coral but there cluld still be lots of usable material left in the excrement.

If this is the case then why have I never noticed my SPS illicit feeding behaviors when fish defecate, only when I add food to the tank?

 

[LifeAquatic]

..

..

I disagree, you can still feed a fishless tank. You add things like AAs, Oyster feast, cyclops ect ect. You don't need "poop". It's the feeding that is doing it, not the fecal waste.

Yes, you can always feed a fishles tank. I have used/use many feeding supplements that are marketed towards SPS as food. AA, Pro Skimmer, Zoo Plankton, Roti/ Phyto feast. Ive dosed a lot of products over time to feed coral. Close attention has been paid to the affects of dosing. There is a whiteboard mounted on the door of my tank where I track daily dosages and write down notes and observations. Even with consistant dosage I have determined through observation that these products alone will not support a healthy aquarium. In some cases the products have no noticeable affect at all. I run a very low nutrient tank via light feeding, heavy skimming regular filter sock changes and fuge with macro algae. If anything my tank needs DOC added to stay healthy. Why are none of these products helping the coral in my tank like you suggest they should? My final conclusion is that coral is happiest when the correct nutrient import/export takes place. You cant have a complete nutrient import without fish. In the home aquarium you should try to mimic the complete eco system to acheive success. Fish poop/ DOC is the start of the food chain in the ocean. Just my thoughts and observations through much experiment.

 

[laud]

These theories are great. It has been proven that many coral foods are great for the corals. Even though there may not be a "feeding response" 24/7 ,which is when fish poop, nor is a giant turd dumped on top of a coral probably all that delicious to the coral, but I doubt that there can be any evidence that shows that fish poop is detrimental to corals, or not consumed at all.

It seems impossible to have one without the other. Naturally speaking.

 

[Winwood]

If this is the case then why have I never noticed my SPS illicit feeding behaviors when fish defecate, only when I add food to the tank?

It is difficult for me to tell you why or why not you have observed certain responses from your corals correlating to feeding as I am not there to observe the inticasies of your aquarium. However, the probability that all SPS are strick zooplanktivores seems highly unlikely. One possible explanation for what you may be observing could be that your fish are defecating on such a steady basis producing a continual stream of nutrients that never actually trigger a noticeable feeding response at a given time.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I doubt that there can be any evidence that shows that fish poop is detrimental to corals, or not consumed at all.

I suggest gathering some fish turds, swirling them in a vial of tankwater and checking PO4 levels with a low range PO4 test kit.
Now repeat the procedure without the turds- just test some tankwater.

The astute reefkeeper will notice a marked difference in PO4 levels.

We all know that high PO4 levels have a profound effect on coral health, no?

 

[ryshark]

These theories are great. It has been proven that many coral foods are great for the corals.

I'd like to see this, please point me in the direction to find a study which proves that many "coral foods" are great for corals. I do feed my sps coral foods and it would be nice to see something which proves I'm not just wasting my money on these products. Here is a good article which explains how much natural food is available to the corals in the ocean's reefs and how we could never replicate the abundance of food there is in a natural thriving reef.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-07/eb/index.php (disclaimer: I haven't read this article in quite awhile)
But, I'd love to see something proving that the stuff we buy is great for coral. Similar to what LifeAquatic mentioned, I too don't really see any obvious differences when I am dosing coral foods or when I am not. (Aside from more PE) Yet I still do it; in my refrigerator right now you will find OysterFeast, RotiFeast, Rod's Food and I also have some Coral Frenzy, TM Zooton and cyclop-eeze
I'm not trying to be arguemenative and I'm not disagreeing, I'd just love to read up where this was "proven."

 

[Winwood]

If this is the case then why have I never noticed my SPS illicit feeding behaviors when fish defecate, only when I add food to the tank?

It is difficult for me to tell you why or why not you have observed certain responses from your corals correlating to feeding as I am not there to observe the inticasies of your aquarium. However, the probability that all SPS are strick zooplanktivores seems highly unlikely. One possible explanation for what you may be observing could be that your fish are defecating on such a steady basis producing a continual stream of nutrients that never actually trigger a noticeable feeding response at a given time.

 

[SPSEMPIRE]

simple rule of thumb in keeping corals, a polyp will eat anything that will fit in it's mouth.

 

[laud]

I'd like to see this, please point me in the direction to find a study which proves that many "coral foods" are great for corals. I do feed my sps coral foods and it would be nice to see something which proves I'm not just wasting my money on these products. Here is a good article which explains how much natural food is available to the corals in the ocean's reefs and how we could never replicate the abundance of food there is in a natural thriving reef.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-07/eb/index.php (disclaimer: I haven't read this article in quite awhile)
But, I'd love to see something proving that the stuff we buy is great for coral.

I'm not trying to be arguemenative and I'm not disagreeing, I'd just love to read up where this was "proven."

I may have been misunderstood. I was not claiming that the store bought coral foods were proven to be great for the corals. Like your article claims, "replicate the abundance of food there is in a natural thriving reef." I was referring to the "many" coral foods as in nature and the "abundance" of food there. Not what we buy specifically. So, the proof is in the article you linked.

I was trying to say that the variety is the key to success. That is why I am "guessing" that poo isn't that terrible, in moderation.

PO4 in excess isn't good, but starvation isn't either.

Would you rather die of starvation or gorging yourself? I would choose neither.

 

[ryshark]

I may have been misunderstood. I was not claiming that the store bought coral foods were proven to be great for the corals. Like your article claims, "replicate the abundance of food there is in a natural thriving reef." I was referring to the "many" coral foods as in nature and the "abundance" of food there. Not what we buy specifically. So, the proof is in the article you linked.

I was trying to say that the variety is the key to success. That is why I am "guessing" that poo isn't that terrible, in moderation.

PO4 in excess isn't good, but starvation isn't either.

Would you rather die of starvation or gorging yourself? I would choose neither.

I figured that could be the case. It doesn't seem that the companies which make the coral food we buy have done much to prove what is in their products and if it is indeed beneficial to sps. I have felt this way ever since this thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1758898&highlight=oysterfeast&page=3
When the guy busted out the microscope and when someone asked reefnutrition for pictures of eggs in oysterfeast, they just replied saying they aren't a sponser so they shouldn't post pics; and that was the end of it. But I don't see these pics on the website either.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

simple rule of thumb in keeping corals, a polyp will eat anything that will fit in it's mouth.

you need to watch your aquarium corals more closely

 

[SPSEMPIRE]

you need to watch your aquarium corals more closely

Just think about it...........

probably so, just don't tell my wife that.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Just think about it...........

probably so, just don't tell my wife that.

:rollface:

I want to thank MammothReefer for posting this thread.
He's got it down:

Would it not make more sense that it's the act of FEEDING the tank (or our fish) is what does the trick,

The left over food particles "clouds" that come off our food, break down in the water column and are then collected and eaten by our SPS when they are small enough to be captured are what I believe are feeding/coluring our SPS, and our ability to skim or remove by other means these particles before they break down and pollute the water is what sustains our ability to keep these corals alive. Regardless of if we have fish or not. I'd go as far as to say. An SPS tank FED and with proper waste export without the presence of fish would do just as good if not better then any fish infested waters!

To me... Fish Poop = Good Colured SPS = Add more fish = or take a deuce in your tank once a week. It just doesn't add up.

How could the nutrient stripped waste of our animals be more beneficial to our coral/colours then the nutrient rich food we supply them with?

 

[SPSEMPIRE]

For me it is easiest to see it like this...

too much of a good thing is a bad thing.

 

[ousnakebyte]

I'd like to see this, please point me in the direction to find a study which proves that many "coral foods" are great for corals. I do feed my sps coral foods and it would be nice to see something which proves I'm not just wasting my money on these products. Here is a good article which explains how much natural food is available to the corals in the ocean's reefs and how we could never replicate the abundance of food there is in a natural thriving reef.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-07/eb/index.php (disclaimer: I haven't read this article in quite awhile)
But, I'd love to see something proving that the stuff we buy is great for coral. Similar to what LifeAquatic mentioned, I too don't really see any obvious differences when I am dosing coral foods or when I am not. (Aside from more PE) Yet I still do it; in my refrigerator right now you will find OysterFeast, RotiFeast, Rod's Food and I also have some Coral Frenzy, TM Zooton and cyclop-eeze
I'm not trying to be arguemenative and I'm not disagreeing, I'd just love to read up where this was "proven."

I'm probably going to get scolded for going slightly off-topic again, but here goes...

Here is a paper from 2008 that discusses the benefits of feeding newly settled corals:

Petersen, D., Wietheger, A., Laterveer, M. [2008] Influence of different food sources on the initial development of sexual recruits of reefbuilding corals in aquaculture. Aquaculture 277:174-178.

In summary, feeding good old-fashioned newly-hatch brine shrimp to your corals is beneficial - you are not wasting your money there.

And yes, there is no way we will ever be able to replicate the variety they prey upon in the wild.

simple rule of thumb in keeping corals, a polyp will eat anything that will fit in it's mouth.

Ummm... well, they will reject non-decapsulated brine eggs (with the cysts still on them).

And, it's not exactly a coral polyp, but this guy did reject this eventually... :rollface:

Cheers
Mike

 

[SPSEMPIRE]

Also keep in mind, unless I am mistaking, that a polyp eats and produces waste from the same pathway, meaning food goes in and waste come out of the mouth.

Brine eggs are too big for a polyp IMO. I'm still referring to larva and other zoo plankton

Size dictates function.....basic biology guideline.

 

[ousnakebyte]

Also keep in mind, unless I am mistaking, that a polyp eats and produces waste from the same pathway, meaning food goes in and waste come out of the mouth.

Brine eggs are too big for a polyp IMO. I'm still referring to larva and other zoo plankton

Size dictates function.....basic biology guideline.

No, brine eggs are not too big for sps. The study I referenced above used A. tenuis settlers in the study, and Dirk fed them newly hatched artemia. Newly hatched artemia are very close in size to the eggs, perhaps even slightly larger. It's the cyst of the brine egg that makes them unpalatable.

In addition, decapsulated brine eggs will be readily accepted too. This is why I favor decapsulating brine eggs before hatching/feeding. If you get a poor hatching rate, all is not lost from your batch.

Newly-hatched brine is very similar in size to much zooplankton. It's the variety that we lack in closed systems.

Sorry Gary, I know I'm off topic - they don't eat poo...

Cheers
Mike

 

[pimp2daizzo]

Should be on the labels of the food you got, some are high in fatty acids, some protein, ect.

i mean arent the fish going to use most of it up