rtparty
Raise The Reef!
Jim, don't you dare bring logic into an LED thread! There is no room for any of that.....
I totally agree with the Reefbrite strips for supplementation too. Crazy good pop from them and no replacements. Win win in my book.
Real Cost Savings of LED vs MH/T5
- Thread starter d2mini
- Start date
Jim, don't you dare bring logic into an LED thread! There is no room for any of that.....
I totally agree with the Reefbrite strips for supplementation too. Crazy good pop from them and no replacements. Win win in my book.
There is always Geisemann fixtures. May or may not give you anymore benefit, but they'll certainly be willing to take your money.
So say at that level that you're looking at twice the initial cost for LED over MH. What is the difference when you get into the land of mid range gear?
Let's say I started today and bought lighting for my 300dd. In a canopy to keep it simple.
Led: 3 ecotech radion pro cost 2,250
Mh/t5: like rtparty example is be in at 1,100
I have 1,150 in cash to spend on lighting and electricity before I'm even.
Fast forward 3 years
9 bulbs at 80$ = 720$ plus electricity in my area
750w halides minus 300w for LEDs = 450w per hr x 8 hrs x 365 x 3 = 3,942 kWh at .14/kWh = $552 over the three years
IMO the majority of people will upgrade their LEDs to the new tech within 3 years.
2,250 - depreciation of 60% = $900 then you buy the new tech for 2250 again.
So at the end of four years now for total costs
LEDs cost after four years $3,600
Mh cost after four years $2,600
Slice it anyway you want. Add in t5's change bulbs over a longer period. When you run the numbers and don't factor in all the costs the. LEDs are great. The issue is when you actually look at everything.
Yes you can get a cheap led setup but most likely you will upgrade that fixture faster then the 3 year period to get better control.
Led: 3 ecotech radion pro cost 2,250
Mh/t5: like rtparty example is be in at 1,100
I have 1,150 in cash to spend on lighting and electricity before I'm even.
Fast forward 3 years
9 bulbs at 80$ = 720$ plus electricity in my area
750w halides minus 300w for LEDs = 450w per hr x 8 hrs x 365 x 3 = 3,942 kWh at .14/kWh = $552 over the three years
IMO the majority of people will upgrade their LEDs to the new tech within 3 years.
2,250 - depreciation of 60% = $900 then you buy the new tech for 2250 again.
So at the end of four years now for total costs
LEDs cost after four years $3,600
Mh cost after four years $2,600
Slice it anyway you want. Add in t5's change bulbs over a longer period. When you run the numbers and don't factor in all the costs the. LEDs are great. The issue is when you actually look at everything.
Yes you can get a cheap led setup but most likely you will upgrade that fixture faster then the 3 year period to get better control.
Jim, don't you dare bring logic into an LED thread! There is no room for any of that.....
I don't see the need for snark. I'm not trying to defend some stuff I don't even have. It just seems like a weird argument.
People spending money on high end hobby items aren't saving money, so this technology isn't cheaper over their usable life is a weird conclusion to me. I can't imagine that Dennis bought the Radions, because he thought they were going to save him a bunch of money.
I don't think anyone looks to Ecotech for value. They seem to make products for reefers who are willing to pay more for non-essential features.
d2mini
Premium Member
Exactly.
For me, any power savings is nice but there are several other features that other lighting systems can't match. Is it worth it in the end? Maybe for some, maybe not for others.
rtparty
Raise The Reef!
I didn't mean to sound rude. For me, there are hundreds of LED threads and all of them are full of misinformation. Some are just out right lies while others are half truths.
I was joking around with Jim because he is usually a voice of reason in most threads. It wasn't directed at you personally. I'm sorry if it was taken that way. :beer:
I think LEDs in general are FULL of non essential features. It's not just one brand or style. I think all of us are after one thing: healthy corals. Bells and whistles are nice but are non essential in the end.
I completely agree with the thought of "this is a hobby. We aren't trying to save money." Unfortunately, I've seen a trend the last few years for everyone to be "green" in a very non "green" hobby.
mhucasey
Acros & wieners, oh my!
I too saw negligible energy increase when I switched from LEDs to T5s. It will be many years before I will have spent more in electricity than I would have if I had bought a new LED fixture. To truly replace T5/MH lighting with the same coverage/intensity/color it will take more fixtures than most people plan for. 3 Radion pros do not have the coverage of 3 250Watt radiums and 6 T5 tubes.
I have a feeling we will see a lot of PO'd reefers when these fixtures wear out way sooner than the "10 years" or whatever the MFG are claiming. Will the manufacturer of these expensive LED fixtures still be in business then? Will they honor their warrantees? About a year ago I started replacing lights in my house with LED bulbs specifically for that long term life selling point. I have a burned out bulb already:headwallblue: I hope Lowe's will replace the bulb as i didn't keep any paperwork on it(it was supposed to last 8 years plus I think)...
I have a feeling we will see a lot of PO'd reefers when these fixtures wear out way sooner than the "10 years" or whatever the MFG are claiming. Will the manufacturer of these expensive LED fixtures still be in business then? Will they honor their warrantees? About a year ago I started replacing lights in my house with LED bulbs specifically for that long term life selling point. I have a burned out bulb already:headwallblue: I hope Lowe's will replace the bulb as i didn't keep any paperwork on it(it was supposed to last 8 years plus I think)...
That's completely fair, and sorry I took it out of context. Who knew the world didn't revolve around me?
Misinformation definitely abounds. It's just really hard to compare anything in this hobby. Though it seems like in the end it comes down to about 80% husbandry anyhow, so maybe it's not worth sweating the small stuff.
This seems like a pretty interesting thread since Dennis was actually able to give a decent estimate of his power usage and we've got pretty good photographs of how it has worked out for his tank.
Misinformation definitely abounds. It's just really hard to compare anything in this hobby. Though it seems like in the end it comes down to about 80% husbandry anyhow, so maybe it's not worth sweating the small stuff.
This seems like a pretty interesting thread since Dennis was actually able to give a decent estimate of his power usage and we've got pretty good photographs of how it has worked out for his tank.
I worry about that with these too. Seems like everyone has jumped on the band wagon, and it's going to be really hard to hold most of them accountable at all.
"Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time." - Tommy Boy
Excellent points. How many people are still running any generation of the Solaris, an original Sol, etc etc. They either junked them or pawned them off to someone else and replaced them with a new fixture. For the longest time the LED mfg's claimed a replacement for the 250 watt MH, then after reality crept in and people questioned that and Sanjay's testing showed it was bunk (though I doubt that was his intention) only the unscrupulous places still make that claim. I am surprised it took so long for them to stop making that claim, there is a massive difference in 250 watt setups, some producing very low par and some with massive par. Which one did they test against to make that claim?
No matter what you do, it takes X amount of wattage to maintain a tank at a given temp or temp range. What you replace in lighting you will have to make up for somewhere else, such as a heater. If you are supplying more heat to a tank than it can manage you have to either decrease the energy in the tank, or increase it with a device that cools, such as a chiller, if you are lucky you can take advantage of evaporitive cooling with a fan or two. I chose to decrease wattage without giving anything up, which is why my tank runs on on 20-25 bucks a month, and that includes the A/C, not bad for about 120 gallons TWV, I can live with that.
Your argument is a good argument but there are some important factors we need to bring into this comparison. The first one is the whole LED assembly does not last 50k hours. The drivers in most of these lights are not the highest quality. Many people have had drivers go out. I have also seen some LED's go out too. Also the fancy electronics go out too. With MH's you can get 10 years out of a quality ballast. LED technology is constantly changing. Many people have changed LED lights 2 or 3 times and others have modified them. Where MH lights arent going to change and all the advances were made years ago...
I have LED lights and really like them. But a few dollars here or there really doesn't make a difference in a very expensive hobby like ours. If my wife knew how much I had in this tank she'd kill me.
Ron Reefman
Active member
I have 4 tanks, 180g, 70g, 65g and 24g. Three were MH and t5 and the 65 was only t5 and the total wattage was in excess of 1800 watts. I had them all of 2011 & 2012. After Christmas in Dec 2012 I switched to all leds. The 180 got 2 IT2080's, the 70 got an IT2040 and the other 3 got Arctic S026's. The total wattage is 960 watts, but they max at about 60% power, so only 500 watts really being used and 3 of the fixtures do long sunrise/sunset so they use even less. They ran all of 2013.
So I saved energy with the lights, my 2 chillers run about 10% as much as they use to run (and they are both outside) and my house A/C runs less. My 2013 total electric bill was over $400 less than 2011 or 2012. I had 6 250w MH bulbs which I replace half every 12 months (3 bulbs x $70 = $210). And I had 10 t5 bulbs which I replace every 12 months (10 bulbs x $20 = $200). So that's $410 in bulb savings and I replace on a conservative schedule. $400+ in electricity savings and $410 in bulb savings = $810 savings in 2013. I got a good deal on my led fixtures in a big group buy and all 6 of them only cost me less than $1400. So I have less than a 2 year payback and I had 5 fixtures I sold after 6 months (just wanted to be sure I liked the leds before I sold them) for $600.
Now I have 4 tanks, 2 chillers and live in SW Florida where we run the A/C 6-8 months (every day), so my savings may be a bit better than most. And I got a deal on fixtures that is still better than most could do today. But a 2 year payback on just savings in electricity and bulbs is incredible. And almost a 1 year if you take the sale of the old fixtures into account (I don't BTW).
There are reasons for running MH or t5 or leds. They all work and they all have advantages and disadvantages. I freely admit my leds have a few issues I'm not thrilled with. But I wouldn't go back to MH if you gave me the fixtures for free! The energy and bulb costs are enough of a reason, but the heat issue was my real driving force. And my 180g DT and 65g frag tank are full of sps and clams that are all just as happy now as they were under MH & t5 combos. Some of you can hate leds all you want, it's your loss IMHO.
So I saved energy with the lights, my 2 chillers run about 10% as much as they use to run (and they are both outside) and my house A/C runs less. My 2013 total electric bill was over $400 less than 2011 or 2012. I had 6 250w MH bulbs which I replace half every 12 months (3 bulbs x $70 = $210). And I had 10 t5 bulbs which I replace every 12 months (10 bulbs x $20 = $200). So that's $410 in bulb savings and I replace on a conservative schedule. $400+ in electricity savings and $410 in bulb savings = $810 savings in 2013. I got a good deal on my led fixtures in a big group buy and all 6 of them only cost me less than $1400. So I have less than a 2 year payback and I had 5 fixtures I sold after 6 months (just wanted to be sure I liked the leds before I sold them) for $600.
Now I have 4 tanks, 2 chillers and live in SW Florida where we run the A/C 6-8 months (every day), so my savings may be a bit better than most. And I got a deal on fixtures that is still better than most could do today. But a 2 year payback on just savings in electricity and bulbs is incredible. And almost a 1 year if you take the sale of the old fixtures into account (I don't BTW).
There are reasons for running MH or t5 or leds. They all work and they all have advantages and disadvantages. I freely admit my leds have a few issues I'm not thrilled with. But I wouldn't go back to MH if you gave me the fixtures for free! The energy and bulb costs are enough of a reason, but the heat issue was my real driving force. And my 180g DT and 65g frag tank are full of sps and clams that are all just as happy now as they were under MH & t5 combos. Some of you can hate leds all you want, it's your loss IMHO.
d2mini
Premium Member
Ron, i don't think anyone here was hating on LEDs.
I have Radions, I started this thread and that's not what it's about. There's another huge thread for that.
Thanks for posting your figures!
Reddevil258
New member
Or just not have your chiller in the house. Mine has always been plumbed and vented outside the house.
But if you had to invest $2k to save 250 a year that's not a savings.
I don't hate LEDs or hate on them.
What I think is an issue is that people overestimate or exaggerate the savings.
Geographic location in your case plays a role in the equation. But so does the multiple tanks if you are just going to throw out a per months savings. Most people don't have 4 tanks.
What I think is an issue is that people overestimate or exaggerate the savings.
Geographic location in your case plays a role in the equation. But so does the multiple tanks if you are just going to throw out a per months savings. Most people don't have 4 tanks.
I agree. However, my corals are doing nicely with good coloration. For me the hassle of changing bulbs and bulb replacement costs is significant but only as long as my corals are doing well.
mhucasey
Acros & wieners, oh my!
I'd like to second that I don't hate LEDs, though I no longer use them. I will again someday i'm sure, but not until I can find or build a large array(like the triton Lani LED) but with no white LEDs. I'd like to build my "white light" from Blue, Red, Green, and Violet the way Pacific Sun does(and T5 bulbs), so I'd need individual control of the colors. And the fixture would have to look good.
When I have priced this out my issue is with the initial price outlay. With what I would want there unfortunately would be very little in electrical savings with the large amount of LEDs, so it would take a long time to pay back. There would be some savings in heat possibly but my biggest electrical draw right now is the heater, so that isn't much of a concern for me.
To get back to the original point of the thread, I'd like to suggest that everyone should buy a Kill-a-watt and plug every item in their tank into it one at a time. See how much all the lights are using when they are running for the day, do cumulative electrical draw for a day. Find out where your energy is being used. I did this in my house as well. Its amazing when you find out where you are burning the juice. I switched out a few pumps in my filtration system and saved about 80 watts of power that was being used continuously 24 hours a day. That adds up.
When I have priced this out my issue is with the initial price outlay. With what I would want there unfortunately would be very little in electrical savings with the large amount of LEDs, so it would take a long time to pay back. There would be some savings in heat possibly but my biggest electrical draw right now is the heater, so that isn't much of a concern for me.
To get back to the original point of the thread, I'd like to suggest that everyone should buy a Kill-a-watt and plug every item in their tank into it one at a time. See how much all the lights are using when they are running for the day, do cumulative electrical draw for a day. Find out where your energy is being used. I did this in my house as well. Its amazing when you find out where you are burning the juice. I switched out a few pumps in my filtration system and saved about 80 watts of power that was being used continuously 24 hours a day. That adds up.
You don't have to spend 2K on LEDs any more than you do with any other lighting technology. That has already been pointed out multiple times.
There are advantages and disadvantages to each technology period.
