Real Cost Savings of LED vs MH/T5

[Fredfish]

I don't hate LEDs or hate on them.

What I think is an issue is that people overestimate or exaggerate the savings.

Geographic location in your case plays a role in the equation. But so does the multiple tanks if you are just going to throw out a per months savings. Most people don't have 4 tanks.

There is absolutely no need to spend more on LED than on any other light. I can replace the Radion pros you quoted with 3 dual Lumia 5.2s at $1,000 and completely eliminate the supposed cost disadvantage of LED. In a fair comparison, cost is no longer an issue.

As you can see, I also have an issue with overestimation and exaggerations.

 

[sfsuphysics]

D2Mini: Out of curiosity how did you graph those PAR readings based on time of day? Surely you don't have sensors all over your tank to do that? OR did you really take that many data points with a hand held PAR measuring device?

That said cost savings by switching to different technology can be quite misleading. Especially when you compare a radion pro vs a metal halide and declare that they are the same equivalent amounts of light. Now I'm not talking about total output (which is a debate in itself) but if you look what happens with your LED setup is that you gradually come up to full intensity, with a metal halide you're a full power from the start, even if you have less hours with a metal halide bulb (6 vs 10), you have 6 hours of maximum output where as with the radion it looks like 2 hours or so at max output. As the saying goes apples to oranges.

Not to mention different people will have different levels of "savings" on the energy side of things, I saw people mention chiller requirements, another mentioned heater. For me in San Francisco a chiller is not a piece of equipment I ever need, metal halides actually heat my tank in a useful way too such that my heaters don't turn on as much. So my switch to LEDs actually ended up probably costing a bit more in electricity for less overall output.

Another person mentioned replacement costs of bulbs, that's probably where the largest savings will be, while some people buy $20 bulbs, others buy those $80 bulbs, some go 6-9 months before replacing others go 12-18 months. While yeah the technology changes rapidly (3 years later and how many different versions of the Radion? yeah... exactly), sticking with what you have needs to be taken into account, not people who have money burning a hole in their pocket who changed fixtures every couple years.

So the "real cost savings of LEDs" is going to be unique for each individual, people should take into account before deciding to jump feet first in.

Hell some people cost savings isn't really that much of a consideration. I mean for me being able to ramp up and down the intensity of multiple colors throughout the day is something that is indispensable to me, do the corals care? I don't care if they care, I care Before I'd have a couple of actinic bulbs fire on, then some blue bulbs, then the halides, then the reverse turning off, so I had full intensity from each of those for a set period of time and more importantly it took up valuable space on my controller's power bar. Now I can flip on the violets have them gradually turn on, then blues overlapping, later on whites, etc. And I'm sorry but ATI blue+ bulbs can't hold a candle to what royal blue LEDs do with corals.

 

[d2mini]

D2Mini: Out of curiosity how did you graph those PAR readings based on time of day? Surely you don't have sensors all over your tank to do that? OR did you really take that many data points with a hand held PAR measuring device?

In my initial post I was saying that this chart was created by AquaticLog, using the data from the graph I uploaded and data from Ecotech.

 

[sfsuphysics]

ah gotcha, so those values are Ecotech's measurements at any particular distance. Thanks

 

[Dashiki]

There is absolutely no need to spend more on LED than on any other light. I can replace the Radion pros you quoted with 3 dual Lumia 5.2s at $1,000 and completely eliminate the supposed cost disadvantage of LED. In a fair comparison, cost is no longer an issue.

As you can see, I also have an issue with overestimation and exaggerations.

Are you saying I exaggerated my point by choosing the most popular led fixture?

 

[Fredfish]

Are you saying I exaggerated my point by choosing the most popular led fixture?

Yes. What James77 (not rtparty) offered up for $1,100 was a list of DIY parts to put together a light. What you offered up in comparison was a premium finished product with lots of marketing behind it. If ever there was an apples to oranges comparison this is it.

In turn, I offered up a similarly high quality set of DIY LED parts for, yes, the exact same cost as what James77 proposed for his MH example. That is a 1:1 apples to apples comparison.

I'll go one better than that though. You can pick up a set of 5 reefbreeders value fixtures that you can just pull out of a box and plug in for the same price. In fact, it would not surprise me if reefbreeders/Ever Grow sell more units than your 'most popular' example.

 

[alton]

I think if you polled MH users I bet we are older than the LED users? We are slow to change and unless you can prove your point with time we are not going to change. I still remember the T5 users claiming MH was dead a few years ago. It is nice we can have a good conversation without going ballistic on each other

 

[kdumph]

Really good to know and see the arguments on both sides. Still think I will stick with the LED though.

 

[James77]

Yes. What James77 (not rtparty) offered up for $1,100 was a list of DIY parts to put together a light. What you offered up in comparison was a premium finished product with lots of marketing behind it. If ever there was an apples to oranges comparison this is it.

In turn, I offered up a similarly high quality set of DIY LED parts for, yes, the exact same cost as what James77 proposed for his MH example. That is a 1:1 apples to apples comparison.

I'll go one better than that though. You can pick up a set of 5 reefbreeders value fixtures that you can just pull out of a box and plug in for the same price. In fact, it would not surprise me if reefbreeders/Ever Grow sell more units than your 'most popular' example.

That was in response to a post that stated that the cost of a good halide setup could easily exceed $3,000 dollars. What that halide setup would buy is top of the line lighting with light coverage nearing 3'x3'; if you opted for any of the many well known bulbs, you know that spectrum is never going to be an issue.

Even were I to start up a tank right now with all new lighting components of equal value....one LED and the other halides/some type of supplement...there is no real savings there. While I would never say that LEDs do not work or that they cannot save some people money, there seems to be this "standard" that LEDs will automatically save you money. That is not the case for everyone, and that is all that some are trying to point out in this thread and any of 100 like it. The combined electrical(total system usage, not just what the light uses but how much heaters run as a result) and bulb savings with LED over halides for me would be something like $15-$20 per month.

Savings? Yes. But that is such a trivial amount to me, especially in a hobby that I have spent countless 1,000's on, with my current setup approaching 6-7 grand I bet( I don't want to add it up, I'd throw myself out a window ). I buy a medium iced coffee maybe every other day at $2.53....I could cut that out and save more than I would with LEDs. I love driving around in my car to clear my head...I could cut a few miles off that per week and save more. Some people save serious money with LEDs due to tiered electric and heat costs....but it is NOT across the board. Other features like dimming and cloudy days are fancy, but they are really only for our enjoyment.

 

[James77]

I think if you polled MH users I bet we are older than the LED users? We are slow to change and unless you can prove your point with time we are not going to change. I still remember the T5 users claiming MH was dead a few years ago. It is nice we can have a good conversation without going ballistic on each other

I'm 36....and I still game on PC and console . I love new tech from phones to anything in our hobby to the most modern GPU on a PC. I have tried all lighting available to our hobby, and I go with what makes sense....what works best for the animals. If there were substantial savings in LEDs for me, I would be Mr. LED....but there are so many variables, and many people find the savings ( a HUGE part of LED argument) are simply not there.

 

[Fredfish]

That was in response to a post that stated that the cost of a good halide setup could easily exceed $3,000 dollars. ...

Jim. I was not taking issue with your post, but with Dashiki's mis-application of your point to suggest that LED is always expensive up front.

The combined electrical(total system usage, not just what the light uses but how much heaters run as a result) and bulb savings with LED over halides for me would be something like $15-$20 per month

Exactly. For me its quite the opposite. I would have to run a chiller to use halides. That skews the cost equation towards LED.

All lighting technologies have strengths and weaknesses.

 

[James77]

Jim. I was not taking issue with your post, but with Dashiki's mis-application of your point to suggest that LED is always expensive up front.


Exactly. For me its quite the opposite. I would have to run a chiller to use halides. That skews the cost equation towards LED.

All lighting technologies have strengths and weaknesses.

Woopsie...sorry, I was reading and replying on my phone at the time

Absolutely...if I had to run a chiller, or I had those horrible tiered electric rates, I would be all there with LEDs. Were the total savings for me like 50-60 a month, that would really start to get my attention. I also talk myself out of some of the higher end fixtures often enough...LEDs are not all that far off for me

 

[moondoggy4]

Dennis going back to your first post you are maxing out at 100 watts per unit? and for a duration of 3 hours and then it tappers off, is that correct?
I have a 120 tank 4x2x2 with mostly softies and a tier system how many pro's would I need?

 

[Stackemdeep]

My decision was simple. 2 130watt dual actinic PC bulbs 40 dollars each.
2 150 Watt MH bulbs $60 each. $200 a year total. ( Bulbs were due for replacement.)
Reefbreeders Photon 48 $500 bucks and 1/2 power consumption.
Temp stays 79 degrees flat now. Corals are Happy Happy Happy.

 

[Ron Reefman]

For the people here who keep saying leds are so expensive to buy, either you haven't looked at the quality of some of the newer led fixtures (one IT2080 covers 2 or 3 times the area of an Eco Tech Radion and costs about half as much), or you are still thinking of the prices that were charged for leds 2 or 3 years ago. Things have changed considerably. If you are only willing to consider Radions at $750-$900 per unit, yeah, leds can be very expensive. Do you need Radions... no! I had one and sold it after I got my new leds. The Radion ran hotter, covered less square footage and needed to be hooked up to a computer to be adjusted (a PITA IMHO).

I could get away with 3 Radions over my 180g (I'd rather have 4 due to the thick glass center brace) which would cost between $1800 (3 cheap Radions) to as much as $3600 (4 Radion Pro). Instead, I have 2 IT2080's that I paid $350 each direct from EverGrow in December of 2012. That's $700 for my leds and I paid a bit more than that for the 2 Aqua Medic 2 bulb MH fixtures I bought 2 years before that.

With the Aqua Medic MH's at 2 years old, I needed 4 250w MH bulbs ($200-$300) and 4 t5 bulbs ($80-$100). Even at $280 for less expensive bulbs ($400 for better bulbs), that 33% (or 57%) of what I paid for good leds with built-in controllers, way less heat and about a 900w per hour savings (between $180 and 240/yr in SW Florida, depending on your total electrical usage). That 900watts is 4x250w (MH) and 4x39w (t5) which is 1156w per hour. Leds use 480w peak power and over the course of a day (8 hours) they run at an average power setting of well under 50% (the mid day peak is 70% blue and 40% white or just over 50%). So the leds use about 250w and the MH/t5 used 1156w), that's a 900w savings. And we aren't even considering the 1hp chiller that sits outside and ran 30 minutes every couple of hours with MH and now runs 10 minutes every 6-8 hours with the leds.

 

[d2mini]

Dennis going back to your first post you are maxing out at 100 watts per unit? and for a duration of 3 hours and then it tappers off, is that correct?
I have a 120 tank 4x2x2 with mostly softies and a tier system how many pro's would I need?

Actually, that chart is saying I'm maxing out at about 78w.
The top section under the heading "Lighting" is showing the percentage that I'm running each color channel at each point on my graph. Below that is the wattage.

Hopefully that makes sense.

You would want two. No need for the wide angle lenses because you don't need the extra spread. Each pro is good for 24". I would say one Pro with wide angle lenses is good for near 36". You'd have shadowing on both ends of your tank and you would have to turn up the power. Since adding my wide angles, i went from running the pros at around 60% to 70%.

 

[Fredfish]

Woopsie...sorry, I was reading and replying on my phone at the time

Absolutely...if I had to run a chiller, or I had those horrible tiered electric rates, I would be all there with LEDs. Were the total savings for me like 50-60 a month, that would really start to get my attention. I also talk myself out of some of the higher end fixtures often enough...LEDs are not all that far off for me

No problem. Sometimes its easy to miss the intent of a post, even if you are reading it in your living room on a 60" screen, um, not that I've ever done that.

To be clear, there are other reasons I would choose LED over other technologies the main ones being that I love to play with new stuff and I love to fiddle. I've tried to keep that bias out of the conversation because it it relevant only to me.

I also think that the best of LED is yet to come and, for someone who does not like to research and read a lot, LED is still rather confusing.

 

[RobinsonFam1]

i have a small tank (30g) so my savings are not near what a large tank would be.
previously i had a 90 gal with 2x250 MH and 4x110 VHO. when the economy went down i simply could not afford to replace the lights, i eventually tore the system down due top operating costs. I leaned hard from that ordeal and was not going to go through $60+ MH bulbs plus supplement bulbs every 6-12 mos again.

on the 30G i was having heat issues as well. and putting a chiller on this tank is not an option for me.

I have an Aquatyle DIY kit for about $120, full spectrum, not just whites and blues, with controller. (i know its a low end but again, small 30G with 36 LED's)

no brainer. my corals have exploded with growth and color since then.

I have no idea what my monthly saving are if any going from 175 MH to 36 Led fixture, yearly is well over $100...all i can say that im more than happy with where its at.

 

[iced98lx]

:lurk:

 

[mfinn]

When I switched out to all leds, I saw some pretty nice savings.
At first my wife was pretty ticked that I spent most of the tax refund on my Radions.
But about 3 months later she mentioned to me that the electric bill was $50 a month lower than it usually was.
I replaced 4- 250 watt mh's, 4- 160 watt VHO's and 6 x24 watt T5's with 4 gen 1 Radions.
One of which cost me $50 in raffle tickets at my lfs.
So my cost for the 4 Radions was $1850.
Add to my savings of not buying 4 mh bulbs, 4 -160 watt VHO bulbs and 6 T5 bulbs every year.
Then I suppose you could add to the savings side, the $400 I got for my chiller and pump.
I think I'm going to be on the positive side pretty soon.