Recent attitudes in the Anemone and Clownfish forum

[davocean]

I see alot of cool people come and go, sometimes for a short break, sometimes for good.
It's too bad one exp reefer will give good advice only to have several others argue and say "just go for it man"
usually people are swayed by the advice that is what they WANT to hear, whether good or bad.
The bummer is less experienced reefers seem to come back or be here to contest the larger # of new folks w/ their against the grain advice, so it does get frustrating sometimes.
I see alot of people argue that certain things can be done that go against what many recommend, and they will post that, but rarely do people stand up and admit when it went wrong.
There are exceptions to the rules, but those are very rare, and don't always last.
I guess it's not always easy knowing who to take advice from, but if I spot a "Team RC" in avatar, that is a pretty good indication that person has been around a while and may be someone w/ good advice.

 

[jasonrp104]

I just try to avoid the threads now. There's at least one "How many pairs?" thread a day and I don't answer them anymore. As impressive as Mobert's tank is, people see it, don't read the details, try it themselves, and fail. We always tell people that one pair should be the max and right at the top of the forum you see Moberts tank showing the opposite.

 

[BonsaiNut]

The trend that I've been seeing a lot lately is the attitude towards "my way or the highway".

Attitudes may be flexible. Care requirements for ANY animal are not. When you are talking about shallow water, photosynthetic creatures from tropical seas, you need to start with the specific conditions in which they THRIVE in the wild, and go from there.

I think the more disturbing trend is for people to start by buying creatures they know nothing about, putting them in an environment that they created because it was the one they could afford, or which was most convenient, and then seeing if the creatures survive or die.

I would guess that 90% or more of the mortality in this hobby is associated with people trying to keep creatures in inadequate environments. This is horrible for the hobby (to say nothing for the environment). How many people leave the hobby every year because it is "too expensive" or because they are frustrated and feel bad due to lack of success? Why is it that SOME people can keep amazing full thriving reef setups - while the best many others can achieve is the stereotypical dark reef wall setup, with a few low light creatures clinging for survival to the upper ridge of the rock wall? Just check your local Craigslist for a selection of reefers who are getting out of the hobby - and see what their tanks look like.

I have seen aquarists with phD's and/or 30+ years of experience come to these forums and get "shouted down" by hobbyists with no formal education in biology and/or 6 months of tank-keeping experience. It's the beauty and curse of Internet forums. Unfortunately what it means is that much of the serious discussion leaves the public forums. It still goes on behind the scenes, but much of the public does not benefit from it.

It has raised the question, in my mind, of having an aquarium forum where people have to meet a series of qualifications in order to post (but everyone could read). This would not be an "elitist" position, but one where people would know your minimum experience level - for example, if you post in a clownfish breeder forum you have raised clowns through two generations with at least some individuals matching the wild-caught holotype.

It is much easier to rant and rave on a public forum than actually research, listen, learn and prove that you know what you are talking about.

 

[BonsaiNut]

I just try to avoid the threads now. There's at least one "How many pairs?" thread a day and I don't answer them anymore.

Last time I tried to suggest that people read the FAQ, I got shouted down. Most of the questions asked on this forum have been asked ad nauseum over the last decade.

I understand the role forums play as a community, and that people sometimes just want to talk, or share cool experiences or photos. But if a forum is nothing more than a constantly repeating string of the same content over and over, why even bother trying to write a FAQ? For that matter, why pay the server load costs to host a search function?

The good news is that I have seen definite changes here in the last 8 years. When I first joined, no one could identify anemone or clown species. Basic anemone care and health conditions like "bleaching" "dyeing" or "starving" were not generally known (or accepted). However we seem to have hit a wall when it comes to more advanced topics - like sexual reproduction of anemones in captivity, etc.

 

[RcToners]

It's really a boardwide problem. Unfortunately people take blunt advice as an attack. Then others feel they need to retaliate.

It's great advice, and I wish more would follow it, unfortunately some just like to stir the pot.

Not only is it a board wide problem but its actually simply a forum problem. Any where in any hobby or in any other discussion forum these things happen. People are rude, mean, cruel as well as friendly, nice and caring when it comes to free open use forums these things are always going to happen. Its just part of an open discussion between thousands of people.

 

[velvetelvis]

I see alot of cool people come and go, sometimes for a short break, sometimes for good.
It's too bad one exp reefer will give good advice only to have several others argue and say "just go for it man"
usually people are swayed by the advice that is what they WANT to hear, whether good or bad.
The bummer is less experienced reefers seem to come back or be here to contest the larger # of new folks w/ their against the grain advice, so it does get frustrating sometimes.
I see alot of people argue that certain things can be done that go against what many recommend, and they will post that, but rarely do people stand up and admit when it went wrong.
There are exceptions to the rules, but those are very rare, and don't always last.
I guess it's not always easy knowing who to take advice from, but if I spot a "Team RC" in avatar, that is a pretty good indication that person has been around a while and may be someone w/ good advice.

Well said.

 

[MarineFlake]

The evolution of reef keeping demands that there be discussion among reef keepers. The problem with that statement is that reef keepers are people and we know that not all people are pleasant and friendly. I would only caution as some peer through the rose colored glass of this thread, people keep in mind the ever present rule of researching, discussion (bloggin (yuck)) or just browsing the internet. That rule: It's the internet. A faceless, nameless, public means to an end for some people to obtain information quickly, regardless of who provides that information or how accurate it is. The idea of being anonymous alone is enough to place a loaded weapon, such as a computer, in the hands of simple buffoons. Some people, believe it or not, have absolutely no idea of which they speak, hence the inherient risk of using the internet, even 'forum sites' which use software join dates, avatars, reputaion levels, etc to try and lull people into a very false sense of comfort and perhaps even respect for all the nameless, faceless users. I am not saying the sky is falling but the idea that one would complain about the abrasive manner in which people (Who quite frankly, in instances, have warranted obtuse responses) respond to other's questions in a public forum made up of anonymouse users, makes a couple of points stand out for me. First, freedom of speech, regardless of how coarse, is still alive...for now. Second, a lot of people still don't get it. If your wondering what 'it' is, there is a high probability you one of those people. I think there is value in reminding each other to be civil to one another, but civility is a voluntary state of mind and can not be ushered into place by government, religion or cool posts on internet web sites ; ) Perhaps the real lesson here, at least for me, is that maybe getting enough knee-jerk responses will snap some of us back into reality where the real solution to most, if not all of these daily questions (aka 'posts'), is to present them face to face, perhaps, ask a real person in a real club or real place of business. Still, odds are, ask enough people, and you will find at least one real person who is just as pointed in real life. Sigh, back to the drawing board.

*My thought for the day brought to you by Google...get your search on!*

 

[Arati]

Wow this is a thread that has been needed on this board for a verry long time.

Let me put it like this.

It is not OK to give people advice based on an anomoly. If you pull off some crazy thing in your tank. I assume you are an expert and good for you! I know I do some things that I would never advise anyone else to do.

If you are an expert or long time reefer, then you should know better then to give people anythign but the safest and best advice you can. not only because they deserve but because so many other people read it just browsing through and omg it must be true.

people want to derail this thread and post nonsense and I hope the mods delete it.

The reason the old pro's are so militant about it and all agree on it , is because its the right advice to give to someone when you cant acrtually be there to see thier skill level. to hold thier hand and teach.

It is super frustrating to be on these boards for years and see the same question over and over and always try to give the same solid and proven answer. only to have once again mr anomolay show up and say ya i keep a whole school of anthias with my lion fish...

There arent any rules in this hobby but thier darn sure is a safest and most proven way to do things. People deserve the advice that is closest to that as possible. to give any other advice is a dis service to everyone and its wrong to do that.

 

[DeathWish302]

But, you make a great point. There are a couple of things that I do, that I would never suggest a new person do -- because, like you said, I have learned to see issues before they become problems.

I tend to (( with my advise )) err on the side of being cautious, in the end anemones are still difficult to keep and their care shouldn't be taken lightly.

:thumbsup: +1,000,000!

I just bought a Captive-cloned GBTA this year as my first anemone. All was well when it was placed in my 12gal Onyx breeding Aquapod. One morning...POOF! Onyx clowns dead and the GBTA not looking too hot. What to do but of course a huge water change. The foot on the poor guy starting to rip and rot and solely by increased water changes the conditions improved. No skimmer, no fish currently, 1 non-shielded PH and LED lighting is what has sustained this guy with testing water only once in 6 months. Is it optimal... NOPE! Has knowledge allowed me to see when stress is occurring and react? ABSOLUTELY!

I think the saying 'Do as I say and not as I do' needs to be taken to heart a little more on this forum. It is a dynamic hobby, but I can save you much hassle with what I have learned not to do.

Just My $0.02 on the mishaps of a decade of annoying SW wildlife.

 

[deangelr]

I think one thing that can help when trying to give out information and also when learning new information is knowing where that information came from.

I really like when people use citations or at least just tell us where the information came from.. If you are a PHD then cite your own work.. If you are giving out advise based on experience then say "based on my experience".

I enjoy following the path of knowledge back to the source and trying to see if I can come up with the same conclusion as the persone stating the information.


for example probable half of what i have learned are through reading books (not studying marine bio for 6 years). Delbeck and sprung.. Joyce wilkonson.. I recommend their books and i quote them often.

 

[jkhuskies99]

I have been in this hobby for many years, and I have learned most of my knowledge through this forum thanks to the many experienced and knowledgeable individuals who are willing to take the time to provide advice. I have searched and read through many amazing threads, and this forum has saved me on countless occasions. So, first and foremost, thank you to those of you who have helped me over the years.

I understand the frustration as there are many passionate folks on this forum that love the hobby and care about the animals under their care. Ultimately, there are going to be individuals who are going to do whatever they want to do, nothing anyone can do. We don't have any laws about aquariums, although we all know there are many cases of animal cruelty going on in many tanks across the world. To many people, fish and corals are disposable. If one dies in 1,2 or 10 days, you just go out and buy another one. If that one dies, go out and buy another one.

IMHO (In my humble opinion), I think we all just have to keep things as civil as possible, as someone made the point earlier that public forums bring out all kinds of people. Newbies have to understand that people are passionate about this and filter out the good advice from the sometimes frustrated posts from the experienced, and the experienced have to be as patient as possible with newbies and try not to chastise people. I don't think anyone likes to be chastised or "talked down" to, I know I don't.

I think we need to keep trying to educate and inform, counter the bad advice as best as we can, ignore the individuals that want to be destructive or negative and hope that people do the right thing. IMHO, that is all we can do.

 

[mobert]

I just try to avoid the threads now. There's at least one "How many pairs?" thread a day and I don't answer them anymore. As impressive as Mobert's tank is, people see it, don't read the details, try it themselves, and fail. We always tell people that one pair should be the max and right at the top of the forum you see Moberts tank showing the opposite.

I agree that it is frustrating. There is a surprisingly large number of people who want to keep more than one pair of clowns in a 25 gallon no matter what you tell them. I have had people pm me saying they don't like the answer in the forums but want my opinion only. It is increasingly hard to be polite when it takes four pms to get the point across. The people who ask over and over again will keep asking until they hear an answer they like.

I see nothing wrong with a banner that says "in my opinion, your question has been asked and answered many times, please read the the stickie: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=245520 or use the search function".

Another option would be thumbs up and thumbs down buttons to rate answers. There are newbies who think their question is a poll. I have seen thoughtful answers from one of our knowledgeable experts only to have the questioner ask for more opinions. :sad2::sad2::sad2: Combined with a sort button, the best most useful answers would be brought up to the top underneath the question.

Just some thoughts, easy to spout hard to program

(btw, Jason, your avatar is really unique)

 

[BonsaiNut]

Just some thoughts, easy to spout hard to program

Not that hard, actually.

Post "Thank You" code for vBulletin installations.

However even changing the forum so it adds this functionality, it does not solve the underlying issues:

(1) Some people seek knowledge to decide what to do, while other people just seek opinions that will agree with what they have already decided to do.

(2) People giving opinions that agree with the OP will often get "thanked" regardless of the literal correctness of the response. You see it often on these forums where "wive's tales" take on a life of their own - without a shred of scientific evidence being present to support or refute the response.

Case in point: this thread.