Regenerating GFO

Wouldn't GFO bubble in vinegar anyhow since it is/contains hydroxide?


And agreed with Boomer. Major cool thread. Anytime we can regenerate something and get longer life out of it, it's good for our economy, and good for the environment (recycle!). You know how bad old GFO fills up our landfills :rolleye1:
 
No, hydroxide does not bubble in acid. Only carbonates (and bicarbonates) do. :)

OH- + H+ ---> H2O


CO3-- + 2H+ ---> H2CO3 ---> H2O + CO2
 
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Hey, this seems to work :D

I changed GFO this morning to regenerated version and PO4 has dropped from 0.07 to 0.03 ppm (typically I have *higher* PO4 at evening because of all the feeding during day).

Very nice. Sounds like it may have worked. I hope you'll follow up on this thread and let us know how much life you get out of this rejuvenated GFO.

Your opening post said you were processing 3 kg of spent GFO in 1M NaOH for a week's time. You didn't mention, however, what the approximate volume of NaOH solution you were using and I'm curious. Was it an equal volume? Just enough to cover the GFO? Twice the volume? More?

Randy: I just found this recently issued patent that's relevant to this process: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7588744/description.html

Interesting, eh?
 
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Very nice. Sounds like it may have worked. I hope you'll follow up on this thread and let us know how much life you get out of this rejuvenated GFO.
I will :)

Your opening post said you were processing 3 kg of spent GFO in 1M NaOH for a week's time. You didn't mention, however, what the approximate volume of NaOH solution you were using and I'm curious. Was it an equal volume? Just enough to cover the GFO? Twice the volume? More?
I think the original recommendation is 4:1 (1M NaOH:GFO). I didn't use that much because I didn't have a suitable container, in my case it was more like 2:1. I also think I used a bit more concentrated NaOH solution (I made it from 3M solution). Next time I'll try to be more methodical :D

Randy: I just found this recently issued patent that's relevant to this process: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7588744/description.html

Interesting, eh?
Sure is. Seems like this has been common knowledge, strange that it hasn't been discussed more often here.
 
Been 25 years since I was chem major (briefly). Lately I've been recovering a system that had been let go. The chemistry is coming back. The nitrogen family is under control and now I'm working on phosphorus. An ATS did the job so far but I added some BRS HC GFO last week. This thread inspired me to recycle.:D

This afternoon I put about 400g of BRS HC GFO into 4 liters of roughly 1 molar NaOH. The GFO had spent 4 days taking 180 gallons from just shy of 1.0ppm phosphate to about 0.05ppm phosphate. (It's back above 0.25 within 6 hours already).

I stirred it about once an hour. A yellow (orange??) precipitate developed (iron(III) phosphate maybe??). The color settles. So I guess it's from solid molecules not ions (note that it's been a long time and memory fails me). I had rinsed the GFO with RODI until it ran clear before I started. After 4 hours I stirred and took a bit of fluid out. Diluted 100x, have the equip to do that. Measured about 1.0ppm with my Sailfert phosphate kit. A bit concerned that the PH of that even diluted 100x must be something like 11.

I drained off the solution abot two hours ago, rinsed and drained three times with about 4 liters of RODI, and mixed up 4 liters again. There's a bit of precipitate now, two hours later, but MUCH MUCH less than the first time.

I'll try to measure phosphates in the morning. Anyone know How much I need to worry about the PH when I run the test?
 
schnitm,

Great to have a chemist around!

As far as I know, reactive (ortho) phosphate kits acidify the sample so high pH might be a concern. Here in Finland "distilled" vinegar is PO4 free (it is actually made from acetic acid and water, 10% solution) so I used it to bring the pH down before testing (I'm out of sulfuric acid ;))

From Merck manual (the kit I use):
"The pH must be within the range 0 - 10. Adjust, if necessary, with sulfuric acid."
 
schnitm

A yellow (orange??) precipitate developed (iron(III) phosphate maybe??). The color settles. So I guess it's from solid molecules not ions (note that it's been a long time and memory fails me)

More than likely Iron Orthophosphate, FePO<sub>4</sub>. We call these "salts", the word you are looking for, instead of molecules :) Salt is an ionic compound formed by the ionic bond of + and - Ions.

Fe<sup>+++</sup> + PO4<sup>---</sup> ====> FePO<sub>4</sub>
 
Thanks guys!

I guess what I was trying to get across was I think it's not just swapping phosphate for hydroxide. Looks like some iron's coming off too. And it looks like it's taking more of whatever salt off than it can hold in solution. Wonder how many times you can do this before the GFO just disolves?

Been a long time since I've done real chemistry. Funny thing...the university made me one of the directors of an immunology/genetics lab. All kinds of cool chemistry going on in there. The techs know better than to let me touch anything though! My real lab is full of computers.
 
Tested the solution last night after the GFO had been in the second batch for about 24 hours. Did exactly as before...stirred the GFO, took out some of the lye solution and diluted with RODI 100:1. Tested phosphate and got a reading of about 0.5. This had read about 1.0 after 4 hours with the first batch of lye.

The I used some distilled white vinager to get the PH to about 8.0. Took a few tries. This time it read about 1.0ppm phosphate. About double the reading I got with the high, unadjusted PH. I managed to overshoot once and got a PH below the range of my test kit (less than 7.4). From the PH test color I'd say I overshot a lot. That read 3.0 phosphate. I'm assuming the 1.0 is about right.


If the doubling is right, my first batch of lye was at 200ppm phosphate and the second 100. 4 liters each time so 1200mg total removed from the GFO so far. There's about 700 liters in my system. The GFO droped the phosphate from about 1 to close to zero in 4 days. So it took about 700mg that was originally in the water plus at least 500mg more that must have leached out of the rock or come from food. I fed the tank about 20g of Rod's H total over the 4 days (5 grams each day).


The tank reads about 0.5ppm phosphate this morning. Up from 0.05 to 0.5 in less than 48 hours, about 350mg.
 
Still using the same batch of GFO, now regenerated four or five times :thumbsup:

I haven't tested how well the material still binds PO4 but at least the tank water is constantly around 0.03 ppm. I'll get some fresh GFO in a few weeks and do comparison between them.

Some notes:
- The GFO seems to draw a lot of CaCO3 from water. Takes a good amount of 10% vinegar to get all out ;)
- The color of GFO seems to get darker each time it is regenerated (?) I've been using more concentrated solution (up to 3M) and less than the recommended 3-4:1 water:GFO.
- Some heat is generated during the first hours of regeneration
- It takes a lot of rinsing to get "all" of the NaOH out
 
I had a hard time finding pure NaOH drain cleaner, so I tried regenerating some GFO last night with 50% vinegar solution. It seemed to work well. The phosphate concentration of the soak solution was off the charts. I'm not sure if vinegar will foul the GFO surface though. I may try hydrochloric acid next time.

Scott
 
Scott,

Thanks!

I use vinegar as a first step in regeneration. I was surprised at the amount of carbonates deposited on GFO but never tested PO4 in the used vinegar :thumbsup:
 
No problem,

Next time I'll test some dilutions to quantify the amount of phosphate stripped from the GFO with an acid treatment alone. The vinegar bath treatment seems to be working well enough. The regenerated GFO is keeping phosphates low, 0.01 mg/L according to the Elos kit.

Scott
 
You should be able to buy 'caustic lye', 'lye', 'caustic soda' from any local soapmaker supply shop (if you have one).

- Tagging along...great discussion and glad I saved all my old GFO!

Scott
 
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