sell me on LEDS!

[asid61]

Not hated. I see where you are coming from. You are like those android guys who look at an iphone or ipad based on the individual parts and ignore how the product actually performs a total package. In my world that is what matters.

You can always go out and modify a Honda Civic that will blow the doors off the neighborhood Ferrari. But when you open your mouth to the average Joe and try to explain how inferior the Ferrari compared to your Civic because you were able to get more horsepower out of your civic for less money you start to sound a bit nuts.

Although the AI may not use the best of the best components, the total package works. It provides an excellent spectrum that can both grow and color up corals.

IMO, you are putting way too much emphasis on CRI! It really has no bearing in the conversation as it is totally irrelevant.

I am however curious as to what you recommend for lighting?

The thing is, with LED fixtures, it's the leds that matter. I stated that the leds don't have good spectrum- and that is the basis of why I don't like AI. The spectrum is not good, or at least not good as many competitors. The overall look is nice, but when it comes right down to it, that's all it has advantage-wise over those China fixtures. That and efficiency because of the Crees.

CRI is important because that's what we see when we look inside the tank; it's all about the CRI when it comes to whites. Sure, you get mroe lumens, but it literally will not look as good.

Of course, AI will grow and color up corals. But for the price, you could get a Razor or save up for a Radion, or even settle for a less efficient Evergrow/Reefbreeders fixture. Those give you better growth, and better coloring up of your corals, provided that you don't bleach them, of course.

 

[Ron Reefman]

asid61, I don't know why you hate AI, but your argument about CRI is pretty weak. You make all these claims about the AI terrible color rendition. Well here are two points to consider.

1) Whether a light (and aquarium) look good or not is in the eye of the beholder. The science of how accurately the light renders colors of the stuff in your tank is just numbers. If you like the look, nobody cares if it accurate or not.

2) Most reefers lean toward having at least some extra blue spectrum in their tank, and some even like a lot of extra blue spectrum, So the whole idea of how accurate the white leds render colors in the tank is, for the most part, useless info. I don't care if the CRI is great if the corals look better in a more blue spectrum, I'm going for a more blue, totally bad color rendition. Why? Because I like the way it makes my corals look.

If we were interested in having accurate color rendition we wouldn't all be using led fixtures with 2:1 or 3:1 blue over white leds.

 

[Michigan Mike]

I don't like the AI Sol because it has 3 diodes per puck, a local guy has had trouble with SPS with them. I just sold him some monti caps and a Millie frag and tried to help him with the adjustment the corals are going to need coming from a ATI Sunpower, hopefully everything doesnt die like the other SPS.

I think his light setup looks very sleek though, just needs a attentive person acclimating perhaps?

 

[asid61]

asid61, I don't know why you hate AI, but your argument about CRI is pretty weak. You make all these claims about the AI terrible color rendition. Well here are two points to consider.

1) Whether a light (and aquarium) look good or not is in the eye of the beholder. The science of how accurately the light renders colors of the stuff in your tank is just numbers. If you like the look, nobody cares if it accurate or not.

2) Most reefers lean toward having at least some extra blue spectrum in their tank, and some even like a lot of extra blue spectrum, So the whole idea of how accurate the white leds render colors in the tank is, for the most part, useless info. I don't care if the CRI is great if the corals look better in a more blue spectrum, I'm going for a more blue, totally bad color rendition. Why? Because I like the way it makes my corals look.

If we were interested in having accurate color rendition we wouldn't all be using led fixtures with 2:1 or 3:1 blue over white leds.

1) I did address that in my first post on the subject last page. However, CRI exists for a reason, and in general you want to see more realistic colors instead of streetlamp colors.
2) Blue leds make the color look nicer to the eye and add growth, but they don't lower the CRI of the whites. The whites are what gives the tank a natural look compared with all actinics, and you want those whites to look good.

 

[gcarroll]

The thing is, with LED fixtures, it's the leds that matter. I stated that the leds don't have good spectrum- and that is the basis of why I don't like AI. The spectrum is not good, or at least not good as many competitors. The overall look is nice, but when it comes right down to it, that's all it has advantage-wise over those China fixtures. That and efficiency because of the Crees.

CRI is important because that's what we see when we look inside the tank; it's all about the CRI when it comes to whites. Sure, you get mroe lumens, but it literally will not look as good.

Of course, AI will grow and color up corals. But for the price, you could get a Razor or save up for a Radion, or even settle for a less efficient Evergrow/Reefbreeders fixture. Those give you better growth, and better coloring up of your corals, provided that you don't bleach them, of course.

I'm getting the feeling that you are only talking about the AI Sol and have no idea that AI makes 2 full spectrum fixtures (Vega and Hydra). With the absence of red, green and blue LEDs, I will admit that CRI meens a lot but once you add any other color to a white LED, CRI goes out the window. It is all about the combination of LEDs selected that produces the end spectrum, not any single LED.

 

[Parker0824]

The thing is, with LED fixtures, it's the leds that matter. I stated that the leds don't have good spectrum- and that is the basis of why I don't like AI. The spectrum is not good, or at least not good as many competitors. The overall look is nice, but when it comes right down to it, that's all it has advantage-wise over those China fixtures. That and efficiency because of the Crees.

CRI is important because that's what we see when we look inside the tank; it's all about the CRI when it comes to whites. Sure, you get mroe lumens, but it literally will not look as good.

Of course, AI will grow and color up corals. But for the price, you could get a Razor or save up for a Radion, or even settle for a less efficient Evergrow/Reefbreeders fixture. Those give you better growth, and better coloring up of your corals, provided that you don't bleach them, of course.

The funny thing is AI actually uses Cree XP-G's and is a lot better then the RZR I've seen all units in person, the SOL by far can keep sps the best. Evergrow as well is a good unit but they use cheaper bridgelux LEDs. The SOL is actually full spectrum because the white is neutral widening the spectrum with just the white. Also no LED is "full spectrum" essentially if its not 100 across as that's where they clock their spectrum charts.

Have you used the sol? Can you say 100% it's not a good light? Cause I have it and I only have problems with pink/red milles and that's "some"

I will be going MH/LED on my next tank cause I still do believe fluorescent lighting is much better then LEDs.

I've never had a problem with my sol besides the power the thing has I need it at 30/50/50 in order to not bleach sps. Also I did have browning on some corals when I did the switch from fluorescent lighting. (Which was annoying) but it all came back. Some corals looked a little more faint some looked better TBH but my tank is 80-90% sps and it keeps it fine. Colors it fine and definitely does its job. I would not buy the vega over the SOL it's for customizing, I would like to check out the hydra but I'm waiting to see how my local fish store likes them over his frag tanks.

I also think a lot of it has to do with params. I had to feed less in order to get my colors back due to the LEDs giving out so much of a blue spectrum that the azoox did not need it to color up properly.

If you really want a good LED spend the money and get a GHL Mitras there isn't anything that's close IMO and I feel they will copy them in future, cause its more "natural", It doesn't use diodes and actually uses a reflector. I think it can chane Wv from 200-700.

I can say the sol is not the best light but it isn't the worse either. I've had great success with sps color/ and great great growth. It is full spectrum so take that myth out because you can see the reds and greens etc, look at spectrum charts the proof is there. It's the same spectrum as a radion besides the fact radion peaks at UV A little higher and SOL peaks at blue a little higher.

There are also great tanks that used the SOL like whatafathers tank, mainly yellows and red milles and they were a colored great (those to most sps wads are the hardest colors to keep an maintain)

http://youtu.be/jft-GFADmgo

 

[SUMIXAM]

I love me a good lighting fight!

After reading all the posts in this thread, I've come to the conclusion that there's no general concensus.... HAHA!

I'm considering going LED because of lower power draw, runs much cooler, and less bulb replacement. I've read the arguments that led's are not idiot-proof, but i'm not getting into this hobby because it's easy. I'm getting into it because of the challenge, which i'm sure i'll have a hard enough time getting my water chemistry right, i probably don't need to add led lighting adjustments as another variable. Speaking of which going T5/MH route, i'd be in the same boat, as far as having the right bulbs to get the look i want. So might as well go led and hopefully fine tune the lighting as my tank progresses and matures.

That's my take on the lighting debacle.

 

[deepseadan]

I love me a good lighting fight!

After reading all the posts in this thread, I've come to the conclusion that there's no general concensus.... HAHA!

I'm considering going LED because of lower power draw, runs much cooler, and less bulb replacement. I've read the arguments that led's are not idiot-proof, but i'm not getting into this hobby because it's easy. I'm getting into it because of the challenge, which i'm sure i'll have a hard enough time getting my water chemistry right, i probably don't need to add led lighting adjustments as another variable. Speaking of which going T5/MH route, i'd be in the same boat, as far as having the right bulbs to get the look i want. So might as well go led and hopefully fine tune the lighting as my tank progresses and matures.

That's my take on the lighting debacle.

You may like a lighting fight, but don't do it at the expense of living animals (corals). If you keep it simple and go with a t5 fixture with any ati bulb combination you can devote all your "fighting" towards water chemistry.

 

[Reef_ACT]

I am thinking of taking the plunge and going from my T5HO to all LEDS on my 55g. looking at the AI Vega's but might wait and see how the new Hydras are. what other LEDS are people running, whats good and bad about different ones.

I sent this to Orphek recently. I have had their lights for three months.

Tank Specifications:
2400mm x 600mm x 600mm

Salt Water

Homemade Calcium reactor using HydroCarbonate reactor media.
Homemade needle wheel skimmer using a Reeflo Dart needle wheel pump

Sump: Contains a refugium

Other Filtration: No other mechanical or chemical filtration used.

Additives used: none

Water changes: 180 Litres/Month using natural sea water

Lighting: Previous lighting system: 3 x 250watt Reeflux 1200K MH bulbs
Current lighting: 3 x Orpehk Atlantic LED mounted 300mm above the water. Would like three more to give even better coverage. Can anyone donate $2k to do this?

Main return pump: Reeflo Marlin
Circulation pump: Turbelle® stream 6125

Water parameters: pH: 8.2 dKH: 9.3 Calcium: 350 Temp 26 Degrees C

The tank is primarily an sps acropora tank with a few soft coral such as mushroom and pulsating xenia. There are two clams and a cork screw anemone.

When using the MH lights I noticed that the coral would look and grow ok for about 6 months and then gradually go downhill as the lights got old. I changed the lights every 12 months as they are expensive to purchase in Australia.

Recently we started to experience brownouts on a regular basis in our suburb. This caused the MH lights to turnoff but not have enough time to cool before trying to start again. This resulted in severe damage to the lights. I had to choose to either replace the MH lights with more of them, shut the tank down or go for a completely new lighting system. Considering the trouble I had had with MH lights I decided to go for a new lighting system. Shutting the tank down was seriously considered, I do not have the resources to change bulbs every six months. A friend has Orphek LED lights and raves about them. I decided to give them a try.

When I installed the LED lights the coral in my tank were half dead and I knew that strong lighting now would be the end of them, the tank was looking very sad. I initially set the lights on the coral acclimation program for two weeks. The improvement was almost instant. The next day, coral that had not extended polyps in months was starting to open up. By the end of two weeks the coral had stopped dying and were holding their own. I then changed to Program 2 "“ Increased Coral Growth.

I know that there is other LED lighting out there and I am not going to comment on how good or bad it is as I have not tried any of it. If you wish to try it good luck. What I can and will say is that the results since using Orphek AtlantiK lights have been nothing short of miraculous. If Orpehk lights were rubbish I would say so. I have had the lights for just over three months and in that time I have seen coral that was brown, half dead and the rest of it dying now thriving. Even when my tank was doing well I never had that sort of growth. In fact the response from all the coral has to be seen to be believed. For over a year I was not willing to get new coral as I was not sure if it would live. Now I am sourcing new coral, as money permits. Even the clam likes it. A part of the mantle of one of my clams had not opened fully for months. Now it is always open.

Now for the cons: The power supplies that come with the Atlantiks have a thermostatically controlled fan. When this fan turned on I found it rather annoying. Also, having electronics heat up and then cool down on a regular basis is not good for it. Electronics prefers to stay cool. My solution was to mount an Arctic 50mm 12DC CPU cooling fan on top of the power supply and only supply it with 9v. This was enough to cool the power supply constantly so the internal fan never turns on and I cannot hear the Arctic fans. The power supply stays cool.

I am also going to put a bead of silicon around the edge of the acrylic that forms a lid over the LED's as I have found that some salt is getting in between the acrylic. Amazing were salt will get. Even 30cm above the water.

The only user manual, if you can call it that, is on the Orpehk news site. Could be better.


Conclusion:
I could not imagine EVER using any other sort of lighting EVER. The tank is starting to look better than it ever has. I don't have to worry about heat issues in summer ever again. I don't have to change lights for a decade or more. I get constant light with a fantastic spectrum and plenty of output and the spread is good to, although another row would be better but not necessary. The construction of the lights is good. I cannot comment on their reliability as mine are only three months old. My friend has had his for two years with no issues. If anyone out there says that these lights cannot provide enough light for sps acropora down to 300mm bellow the surface and even to 600mm at a push then they have never tried them and don't know what they are talking about. My tank is proof they can and do! I thoroughly recommend these lights to anyone with a reef tank looking to go LED. You will not regret it. You will regret not having done it sooner. The pictures you see on Orpehks web site of customers tanks are no joke and are not "œphoto shopped". The coral really does respond like that. I have provided before and after photos of my coral with the date to show what these lights do. Unbelievable!

I know that the Aquarium has a long way to go before it is a spectacular reef aquarium but it is well on its way
Regards
Mauro
From Australia

 

[asid61]

The funny thing is AI actually uses Cree XP-G's and is a lot better then the RZR I've seen all units in person, the SOL by far can keep sps the best. Evergrow as well is a good unit but they use cheaper bridgelux LEDs. The SOL is actually full spectrum because the white is neutral widening the spectrum with just the white. Also no LED is "full spectrum" essentially if its not 100 across as that's where they clock their spectrum charts.

Have you used the sol? Can you say 100% it's not a good light? Cause I have it and I only have problems with pink/red milles and that's "some"

I will be going MH/LED on my next tank cause I still do believe fluorescent lighting is much better then LEDs.

I've never had a problem with my sol besides the power the thing has I need it at 30/50/50 in order to not bleach sps. Also I did have browning on some corals when I did the switch from fluorescent lighting. (Which was annoying) but it all came back. Some corals looked a little more faint some looked better TBH but my tank is 80-90% sps and it keeps it fine. Colors it fine and definitely does its job. I would not buy the vega over the SOL it's for customizing, I would like to check out the hydra but I'm waiting to see how my local fish store likes them over his frag tanks.

I also think a lot of it has to do with params. I had to feed less in order to get my colors back due to the LEDs giving out so much of a blue spectrum that the azoox did not need it to color up properly.

If you really want a good LED spend the money and get a GHL Mitras there isn't anything that's close IMO and I feel they will copy them in future, cause its more "natural", It doesn't use diodes and actually uses a reflector. I think it can chane Wv from 200-700.

I can say the sol is not the best light but it isn't the worse either. I've had great success with sps color/ and great great growth. It is full spectrum so take that myth out because you can see the reds and greens etc, look at spectrum charts the proof is there. It's the same spectrum as a radion besides the fact radion peaks at UV A little higher and SOL peaks at blue a little higher.

There are also great tanks that used the SOL like whatafathers tank, mainly yellows and red milles and they were a colored great (those to most sps wads are the hardest colors to keep an maintain)

http://youtu.be/jft-GFADmgo

When the words "full spectrum" are used in conjunction with "LED fixture", it generally means you hit all the photosynthetic peaks of chlorophyll A, with supplementary colors like green and red for color rendition.

The whites in the Sol are not neutral white, they are cool white. That means it is a "basic" fixture, consisting of just royal blue and cool white, like the fixtures of 3 years ago.
A full writeup on led spectrums by me can be found in this post.

I never said the SOL wouldn't grow coral. I say again, it will, and those corals will get colored. But the simple reality of the fixture is either that it A) contains a supernatural bin of Crees that miraculously emit the right spectras for absorption or B) Only emits a small amount of usable light, but is still enough for corals to grow and prosper.

On the feeding thing, I'm not sure I follow.

The GHL Mitras is arguably one of the best led fixtures right now, but personally, I would buy a reefbreeders led fixture instead. Why? Because I can ask they load it up with violets and give me the colors I want, instead of accepting a very good, but not best fixture and pay 2x as much for it.
And what do you mean by, "doesn't use diodes and uses a reflector"? With leds, you don't use reflectors in lieu of optics to get more light, and it definitely uses diodes (led = light emitting diode).


The SOL is not even close to the Radion's level, and they certainly have different spectrums. The Radion uses a bunch of violets (though the spectrum is a tad low on those) and cool blues, two <500nm colors important to growth. No way the SOL watches that.
And the cool whites of the SOL do not make up for the huge red spike the Radion has with it's 660nm reds.
I would like to see a spectral chart comparing the two.


Your tank looks absolutely stunning. Full of corals and life. And the barebottom looks very fine too, even though I don't usually like barebottoms.
Are those colors true? If so, then your SPS look a tad white/ washed out. Just a tad, and it's not too noticeable. Just lends the tank a different look than the more vivid colors you sometimes get with reefbreeders and full spec fixtures. Looks calmer actually.


Removed~dc

 

[Parker0824]

When the words "full spectrum" are used in conjunction with "LED fixture", it generally means you hit all the photosynthetic peaks of chlorophyll A, with supplementary colors like green and red for color rendition.

The whites in the Sol are not neutral white, they are cool white. That means it is a "basic" fixture, consisting of just royal blue and cool white, like the fixtures of 3 years ago.
A full writeup on led spectrums by me can be found in this post.

I never said the SOL wouldn't grow coral. I say again, it will, and those corals will get colored. But the simple reality of the fixture is either that it A) contains a supernatural bin of Crees that miraculously emit the right spectras for absorption or B) Only emits a small amount of usable light, but is still enough for corals to grow and prosper.

On the feeding thing, I'm not sure I follow.

The GHL Mitras is arguably one of the best led fixtures right now, but personally, I would buy a reefbreeders led fixture instead. Why? Because I can ask they load it up with violets and give me the colors I want, instead of accepting a very good, but not best fixture and pay 2x as much for it.
And what do you mean by, "doesn't use diodes and uses a reflector"? With leds, you don't use reflectors in lieu of optics to get more light, and it definitely uses diodes (led = light emitting diode).


The SOL is not even close to the Radion's level, and they certainly have different spectrums. The Radion uses a bunch of violets (though the spectrum is a tad low on those) and cool blues, two <500nm colors important to growth. No way the SOL watches that.
And the cool whites of the SOL do not make up for the huge red spike the Radion has with it's 660nm reds.
I would like to see a spectral chart comparing the two.


Your tank looks absolutely stunning. Full of corals and life. And the barebottom looks very fine too, even though I don't usually like barebottoms.
Are those colors true? If so, then your SPS look a tad white/ washed out. Just a tad, and it's not too noticeable. Just lends the tank a different look than the more vivid colors you sometimes get with reefbreeders and full spec fixtures. Looks calmer actually.

I didn't read your whole post, but the I did until the full spectrum part. I have read all that and understand it. Another good article is this one- http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/10/aafeature

I get what your saying but I still don't think you need "all" of the reds and greens, Even from the article I just linked says otherwise I honestly think all you need is UV/RB/Blue/ and White I've yet to see a tank running "full spectrum" and then running blue whites and the full spectrum tank have better colors. Maybe I got my whites mixed up but my SOL I thought had "neutral whites" as they are Yellow when on alone. I always thought cool whites were really white and crisp. I could be wrong.

This is one of my favorite tanks that runs only blue/white LEDs on his DT they are evergrow so pretty much reefbreeders. He used to have the red and green but swapped them out. His tank is amazing IMO and I have got to chance to see it in person a couple times. His colors are truly amazing and probably one of the only tanks I've seen that actually has almost all his sps looking prime. He's actually (his words) Had better success with LEDs
http://www.pnwmas.org/forums/showthread.php?28114-Reefnjunkie-s-400-gallon-inwall/page12

 

[dc]

asid61, you're what, not even 15 yet or just barely? Do you know the consequences for making accusations you can't back up?

 

[asid61]

asid61, you're what, not even 15 yet or just barely? Do you know the consequences for making accusations you can't back up?

I could call/email an Orphek representative if you'd like, but all the signs point that way.
Apologies, I didn't know that kind of stuff was not allowed.

But the white leds are definitely not Cree or Luxeon.

 

[Orphek]

I could call/email an Orphek representative if you'd like, but all the signs point that way.
Apologies, I didn't know that kind of stuff was not allowed.

But the white leds are definitely not Cree or Luxeon.

We would be more than happy to speak with you and you can feel free to call us via our toll free number in the US at 800-398-6775.

While we cannot participate in this thread we will be more than happy to answer questions regarding our products and services.

You can also email us at the email in our signature, you will receive a faster response as we do not check RC for messages daily.

Thanks.