sell me on LEDS!

[gcarroll]

The fact that leds they use are far worse than many competitors such as maxspect. Cool white leds work, but they are not as good as neutral whites and give out a smaller spectrum. And many AI fixtures use just white and blue, so you don't get as good growth or color as with other leds. While it does vary from person to person, AI leds are scientifically not as good.
In addition, they use very low-binned leds; the leds that AI uses have low CRI, so the look to the eye is not as good as other fixtures. They even boast that the cool whites in the Hydra are (>70 CRI) which in fact is actually extremely bad. Again, everyone's eyes are different, and you can love the look of your AI.
And they have a lot of "fluff". Taking the Hydra as an example again, they have a ratio of
4 royals: 2 cool white: 1 410nm: 1 400nm: 1 deep red: 1 green.
The OSRAM "very deep blue" are actually just expensive royal blues with lower efficiency than Crees. The use of both 410nm and 400nm is something like a marketing ploy, except the 400nm are legitimately not as good as 410nm, which in turn are inferior to 430nm. The reds are greens are okay, but a much more preferable option would have been to add in cool blues, which are good for photosynthesis.


I know I'm going to be hated on for this post.

Not hated. I see where you are coming from. You are like those android guys who look at an iphone or ipad based on the individual parts and ignore how the product actually performs a total package. In my world that is what matters.

You can always go out and modify a Honda Civic that will blow the doors off the neighborhood Ferrari. But when you open your mouth to the average Joe and try to explain how inferior the Ferrari compared to your Civic because you were able to get more horsepower out of your civic for less money you start to sound a bit nuts.

Although the AI may not use the best of the best components, the total package works. It provides an excellent spectrum that can both grow and color up corals.

IMO, you are putting way too much emphasis on CRI! It really has no bearing in the conversation as it is totally irrelevant.

I am however curious as to what you recommend for lighting?

 

[CHSUB]

this reminds me of a goniopora argument, when the "expert" aquarist say, "goni's are easy to keep, just look at mine that i have had for 10 months".....

this thread is 30% opinion masquerading as fact and the rest is false. i had just a many sps' do fine under LEDs as i had STN/RTN/pale/die. however, i had more loses with sps' in 8 months under LEDs as i did in 10 years with MH. the best LED users will readily admit that MH are better for color and growth of corals than LEDs. look at the thread in the sps forum "success with LEDs..." the OP, with the outstanding LED tank says he has problems with mariculted sps' and colors and growth are better under MH; if you're saying anything different you're either lying or clueless.

 

[Khemul]

this reminds me of a goniopora argument, when the "expert" aquarist say, "goni's are easy to keep, just look at mine that i have had for 10 months".....

this thread is 30% opinion masquerading as fact and the rest is false. i had just a many sps' do fine under LEDs as i had STN/RTN/pale/die. however, i had more loses with sps' in 8 months under LEDs as i did in 10 years with MH. the best LED users will readily admit that MH are better for color and growth of corals than LEDs. look at the thread in the sps forum "success with LEDs..." the OP, with the outstanding LED tank says he has problems with mariculted sps' and colors and growth are better under MH; if you're saying anything different you're either lying or clueless.

:facepalm:

This is the problem with aquarium equipment in general. Somehow, it becomes politics or religion. People stop thinking rationally. They make up there mind and no amount of discussion or information will change it.

 

[CHSUB]

:facepalm:

This is the problem with aquarium equipment in general. Somehow, it becomes politics or religion. People stop thinking rationally. They make up there mind and no amount of discussion or information will change it.

the problem is we, the aquarists, are letting the makers of LED lamps off the hook. they put out lamps that they neither care or know will work or not; then a year later put out a new lamp!!!!!

 

[Khemul]

the problem is we, the aquarists, are letting the makers of LED lamps off the hook. they put out lamps that they neither care or know will work or not; then a year later put out a new lamp!!!!!

And? Welcome to a developing technology market. They all do that, the early computer market being the most notorious. And eventually, when everything is worked out it stabilizes, a mature product comes out of it and the cycle slows back down to a normal pace. The solution is not to do whatever you possibly can to convince people that LEDs will kill their corals.

No one is pretending that LEDs are a mature product. They are brand new and still being worked out. Even the most die-hard LED fans admit this. They work, there is no arguing with that. For some, they didn't work, there is no arguing with that either. Running around insisting that LEDs can't work, because your tank failed is silly. You've already admitted in multiple threads that you had other problems with your tank. And then within days you jump right back to insisting that LEDs did it. That doesn't do anyone any good. If your tank failed because of LEDs, then people need to know why so that the next generation of fixtures can be adjusted to prevent it. Insisting that they killed some of your corals for unknown reasons that may have had nothing to do with the lights to begin with doesn't help. Actually, in effect it does the opposite of what you are looking for it to do.

 

[Reefer94]

the problem is we, the aquarists, are letting the makers of LED lamps off the hook. they put out lamps that they neither care or know will work or not; then a year later put out a new lamp!!!!!

So entertained by people who come into a thread full of people successfully growing SPS under LEDs and go on and on about how they can't grow SPS under LEDs. Then making excuses about how pictures are photoshopped and color corrected... News flash, most of the MH/T5 shots you see are shopped too. Some of the biggest coral distributors on the planet use LEDs.

Just stop. Type in "LED SPS Tanks" into Google Images. This is getting absurd. I will admit that there is a HUGE learning curve to many LED fixtures, and people are prone to kill things under them. We are playing with wildlife here, and it's not always the best result when people try to learn. When people start to bleach 1000s of dollars in livestock, I can see them freaking out and switching back.

But that's not the fault of the lights, sorry.

I've seen people destroy plenty of SPS under every type of light on the market, btw.

 

[mikeatjac]

this reminds me of a goniopora argument, when the "expert" aquarist say, "goni's are easy to keep, just look at mine that i have had for 10 months".....

this thread is 30% opinion masquerading as fact and the rest is false. i had just a many sps' do fine under LEDs as i had STN/RTN/pale/die. however, i had more loses with sps' in 8 months under LEDs as i did in 10 years with MH. the best LED users will readily admit that MH are better for color and growth of corals than LEDs. look at the thread in the sps forum "success with LEDs..." the OP, with the outstanding LED tank says he has problems with mariculted sps' and colors and growth are better under MH; if you're saying anything different you're either lying or clueless.

I am sorry you did not have luck with LEDs. You sound like a poor loser. However I am having great luck and I am sure the reason for your failure lays somewhere aside from the lights. I looked at many, maybe 50 LED SYSTEMS and the ones that were failing would have failed with any light. I do my research, after 37 years in the hobby I do not believe until I see it! I came from radiums that I loved but my PROs are better!

Sorry for the quality of the the picture but I was in a rush to set the record straight!

 

[deepseadan]

Kissman, so my post is the 150th and after reading all of them, are you sold on LEDs now (as your topic title says)? Some pretty strong opinions on both sides huh?

 

[kissman]

Yea i think i want to give them a shot, might keep my T5 fixture for a bit so if i want to switch back i can. Gonna be a little bit before i get one after just having a baby got a few bills to pay. So i am going to spend the next month or two researching more. But, i think i am going to go with the Reefbreeders seems to be more people happy with them.

 

[CHSUB]

Just to set the record straight"¦..I never said LEDs couldn't grow corals or even sps'. I said, and continue to say, MH/t5 do a better job, with better colors and growth and fewer maladies. LED lighting will light every home, street, and fish tank in the world some day, but today sps reef tank perform better with MH/t5. That is undeniable. I have been a buyer and seller of Cree stock for years (see yahoo message boards) and used LEDs on my reef tank for 8 months and suffered many loses that I attribute to the LEDs. Were there other factors, yes; I improved flow, lowered NO3, and the tank matured and stabilized. However, many reefers report the same problems I had with LEDs. When switching back to MH/t5 everything improved. Here are some specific examples of coral growing businesses that use MH: DD, Vivid, Reef Gardner. (Note, not factless, worthless statements like: "œSome of the biggest coral distributors on the planet use LEDs.")

I was duped into spending big $ on LEDs and told they would give the same results as MH/t5, when clearly they can't. I feel it is my duty to warn other reefers about the pitfalls of LED lighting. We as a group should send a message to the manufactures that we are not going to tolerate untested, unproven produced and that we are not going to be their "œguinea pigs".

Do LEDs grow corals; yes"¦..Can people live on donuts and cigarettes; yes. Question is do you want the best for your reef animals or do you want to save a little on electricity?

 

[michaellee64]

So in a blanket statement, you have said that MH/T5 is what's best for your reef animals? Then why is it that some of us are having tremendous growth and color with our LED's? I came from MH and T5's, and have only lost a few SPS's in the beginning due to not acclimating them to the higher PAR or PUR. I had a Hawkins echinata that had been under t5's for over 1 1/2 years with very little growth, and the colors were just ok. After putting it under my led's, the growth took off and the color was amazing. I lost it due to letting an aggressive coral get to close to it. I'm sorry that you didn't have success with led's , but just because it didn't work for you , doesn't mean it won't work for the next person. There is a whole lot more to SPS success than lighting.

 

[Khemul]

Now that is how to do it CHSUB. :thumbsup:

In general, entirely right. Though, I wouldn't say LEDs can't outperform MH/T5. There is really no reason why they can't, all things being equal. Unfortunately, right now, all things aren't equal. While LEDs have the potential to outperform MH/T5, the plug-and-play nature of modern MH/T5 gives them a huge advantage. A person only has to hang a MH fixture over their tank and buy the right bulb. And since MH and T5's have been around long enough, and studied very closely by reef-keepers, it is pretty easy to direct someone to the right bulb for essentially any need. All they have to do is ask a question and they can be pointed to the exact fixture and bulbs they need and they are set. Put it over the tank and have maximized results.

For now, that will continue to be the key advantage of MH/T5. They are plug-and-play, extremely user friendly and known to work universally. You basically have to put some effort into it to screw up with MH/T5. How important that is, is up to the individual. For some people, it is the most important factor there is. For others, the least.

Personally, I feel LEDs are getting rather close to the point where we can point and say something will work almost universally (we are essentially there when it comes to soft corals, LPS and simple SPS). Probably another couple product generations though before we get even close to what MH/T5 have reached. Which only makes sense, since neither of those lighting styles developed over night either. They took lots of trial and error, and research to reach that point.

 

[sirreal63]

Then why is it that some of us are having tremendous growth and color with our LED's?

I would enjoy seeing a pic of tremendous growth and color.

 

[pjb9166]

You all are putting way too much thought into this.
I've been back into the hobby for a year, after a 15 year sabbatical.
It's amazing how much more we understand today. I did the MH thing and still made some mistakes.
I use T5 HO over my NPT. I personally hate the things. They loose intensity and have to be replaced way to soon. MH way to expensive to run and again replace.
Personally I'm loving my LED's. But if I threw out the name of the unit I'm using you all would need your underews changed.

This thread has made me feel like I'm debating between an atheist /naturalist, Hindu, Muslim and a Christian. It's exhausting .....

With every new thing that came out with lighting we all are guilty of jumping on the bandwagon. Otherwise we all would be using the natural sunlight for example.
This is new a step in technology, yes no doubt about it. We are involved in a hobby. We are suppose to be pioneers.

Instead of debating mine's bigger than yours. Shouldn't we be pulling our knowledge together and move towards a better product. A product that will benefit us and the newcomers .

Sorry rambling on again. With that said. God bless.

Paul

 

[Reefer94]

Just to set the record straight"¦..I never said LEDs couldn't grow corals or even sps'. I said, and continue to say, MH/t5 do a better job, with better colors and growth and fewer maladies. LED lighting will light every home, street, and fish tank in the world some day, but today sps reef tank perform better with MH/t5. That is undeniable. I have been a buyer and seller of Cree stock for years (see yahoo message boards) and used LEDs on my reef tank for 8 months and suffered many loses that I attribute to the LEDs. Were there other factors, yes; I improved flow, lowered NO3, and the tank matured and stabilized. However, many reefers report the same problems I had with LEDs. When switching back to MH/t5 everything improved. Here are some specific examples of coral growing businesses that use MH: DD, Vivid, Reef Gardner. (Note, not factless, worthless statements like: "œSome of the biggest coral distributors on the planet use LEDs.")

I was duped into spending big $ on LEDs and told they would give the same results as MH/t5, when clearly they can't. I feel it is my duty to warn other reefers about the pitfalls of LED lighting. We as a group should send a message to the manufactures that we are not going to tolerate untested, unproven produced and that we are not going to be their "œguinea pigs".

Do LEDs grow corals; yes"¦..Can people live on donuts and cigarettes; yes. Question is do you want the best for your reef animals or do you want to save a little on electricity?

Better, this is more of a structured argument that isn't based solely on anecdotal evidence.

As far as calling out the statement about coral distributors using LEDs, just have to say that Google exists and I generally don't do people's homework, but a couple would be PAF and SDC. Speaking of Vivid, they actually have started using a lot of LEDs. They even have a huge 800-gallon side-by-side MH vs LED tank, you can look that one up while you're at it.

Either way, this discussion will go no where. I'm truly sorry about your losses with LEDs, I'm not here to make you join the bandwagon. Losing livestock is truly devastating, and I whole-heartedly agree that LEDs should be more "idiot-proof (figure of speech, not directed at anyone)" straight from the manufacturer. It shouldn't take frying wild animals to learn how to use lights. I'm only here to dispute claims of LEDs being POS lights that can't grow SPS. Those days are gone, the tech is proven.

 

[wildman926]

Speaking of Vivid, they actually have started using a lot of LEDs. They even have a huge 800-gallon side-by-side MH vs LED tank, you can look that one up while you're at it.

Here you go -
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/IpJM-EIrPI0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[rwb500]

here are some of my sps' under a "full spectrum" led lamp after 8 months....if you want sps' stay with t5.

you slaughtered your corals and you blame it on the light? absolutely ridiculous. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of perfectly successful SPS or mixed reef tanks with LED's.

 

[wildman926]

That's the tricky thing with LEDs.

T5's...you really can't screw it up. Put the maximum amount of bulbs possible over a tank and you're set. There are only so many real bulb combinations, so that is hard to screw up. Roughly the same for MH, although there is some more potential for mistakes.

LEDs...very easy to screw it up. Wrong color combination. Wrong intensity. Wrong optics. Wrong acclimation. etc. With enough work, these are able to be worked out, but it isn't as simple as saying "Switch the Aquablue for a Blue+". And for some people the LED train dies right there. Get a fixture, have a disaster, blame the fixture and return to what worked before.

It doesn't help that the common suggestions for LED fixtures are about 2-3x what is actually needed (unfortunately it isn't always avoidable, because of the coverage/penetration balance), making it easy to nuke the corals with little effort.

A LOT more potential for user error (especially the type that the user has absolutely no idea about), which is essentially why there are so many mixed reviews out there on specific units. The rest of the LED debate...what Ron said...

Good advice here.

 

[Ron Reefman]

Yea i think i want to give them a shot, might keep my T5 fixture for a bit so if i want to switch back i can. Gonna be a little bit before i get one after just having a baby got a few bills to pay. So i am going to spend the next month or two researching more. But, i think i am going to go with the Reefbreeders seems to be more people happy with them.

That is a perfectly sensible approach. Heck, I've been 100% leds for 6 months now and just sold my 4 bulb 250w MH & 4 bulb 39w t5 today! I don't see myself ever going back to MH given what I have seen over the last 6 months.

 

[Stickboy97]

Spot on

Spot on

Great video. Guess that should put s stop to this back and forth...

Here you go -
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/IpJM-EIrPI0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>