sell me on LEDS!

you're correct and all true....however, there are many that have had the same experience i had with leds. shouldn't the makers of leds know more about their own lights and how to run them? why do most users run at such a low power when the tank here with the excellent colors runs his radion @ 100%? it's up to us to help other reefers know about the pitfalls of led lighting. the manufacturers are just trying to make $. Pacific Sun the led i owned have, after 1 year, a new led array. i wasted big $ on leds and i know others who have also. i think it does a disservise to other reefers to say," my sps' do great under leds", when so many have proof to the contrary.
Good to see you read through jrpdriver's thread. jrpdriver is an accomplished SPS keeper prior to the LED revolution. His 300g tank should have been TOTM had he not had problems due to a heavy travel schedule. With all the lighting choices out there today, I am confident that I can keep, grow and color up any SPS under LED, LEP, T5 or MH. I have no reason to change out to T5 at the moment because the advantages of LED for me do not outweigh the initial staqrt up costs. I have considered making a change on the next tank as my current tank is ready to retire!

The problem is not the light but the reefer. I have found that reefers are always looking to divert the blame elsewhere when they fail. The problem with blaming LED lighting is once one person is able to show success, you can no longer blame the product. IMO, jrpdriver's tank proves that LED can perform as well as any other form of lighting out there.

Many on here praise nineball's 1350g tank as an LED success. Did anyone bother to notice that he swapped out approx 3000 w of MH and changed to non dimmable LED setup of approximately the same wattage that was known to have exremely high PAR. That makes me question if the problem is not that the acclimation period is not drawn out too long to the detriment of the coral.
 
Nice pics GCarroll and Mark.

Any info on the fixtures used?
jrpdrivers lighting is a Radion Gen 1 w/ TIR optics. he runs the fixture at 100% on each color just the way Ecotech designed it to be run. He does not even use the ramp up and ramp down features. Just on for a straight 9 hour period and off using a wall timer.

More info can be found in the included link about the tank
 
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In reading the majority of these posts I have a couple of questions I'm hoping those of you familiar with LED's can answer. After losing a ton of livestock in the east coast ice storm of 2008 when I had no heat/power for 2 weeks and which ultimately sucked the life and motiviation out of wanting to keep a tank, I am now back into this full-swing. Propane fueld 10k watt generator installed so I never have to worry about that again.....I recently installed (2) Blueline Phantom 150w LED fixtures over my 4' 125gal. tank. (48" x 24" x24") Right now there is only live rock and several fish; however my intent in the near future (once I get my nitrate problem under control) is to have a mixed reef. I love the lights and from what I have been told and researched, these will be perfect for what I want to do.

My question is two fold really:
1. What do you recommend for a lighting schedule and levels of intensity? I currently amp it up in stages (only 4 settings per channel), ending in 100% for all the lights by late morning and reduce in stages until everything is off at 9:30 pm.
I have seen in a lot of the discussions that some of you never reach 100% intensity with either channel. If not familiar with this particular light - Channel 1: Whites - Channel 2: Aqua Blues - Channel 3: Deep blues, Reds, Greens. As I mentioned earlier I currently only have fish, but want to prepare for corals.

2. I'm also beginning to see that whatever the end result for a lighting schedule/intensity I come to, this goes out the window when acclimating new corals to the tank. What would be your suggestions for light intensity when adding new corals?

I realize this may be tough to really answer based on type of coral, distance from the light to the coral, etc. but look forward to your thoughts and experiences with this. Thanks in advance.
 
another problem with LEDs is the lack of success with acropora corals like Acropora monticulosa, Acropora gemmifera, Acropora hyacinthus, and many others....sure led users will always chime in and say, "my sps' do great under leds." What kind of sps'?????

look at Ron Reefman's tank, and yes it is a very nice tank filled with lps', sps', and leathers but the sps' are not acropora but mostly Seriatopora and Montipora, which i too had success with using LEDs. lets see those blue Acropora echinata under LEDs???? you won't because they don't exist!!!!

I have not been disappointed by such a statement in a long time. Have you not taken time to look at LED tanks. My tank is all SPS and I am having fantastic luck. Use the search feature! Sorry to hear that it did not work for you but maybe it was something else and not the lights.
 
Hey CHSUB

Here is picture of a Blue Acro that I trimmed about 2 months ago maybe 2-3". Now it is sticking out of the water. Oh BTW it is still growing under my Pros and it is .5" out of the water!


 
In a way I almost wish I had kept my sols to try and experiment with them. I've always felt that a photon is a photon and the spectrum just determines how well the light will travel through water. Blue and purple obviously better to red the worst. But having said that, I think the flaw with the sols and many other LEDs are the use of bad optic coverage. I think the optics on the sol were way to spotlighting and coverage was poor. Yes the optics increased the par / intensity to what was needed, but only in a small area. There were to many shadows and dead spots. I had corals that were right next to each other and one would try and bleach and the other brown out. If there was a led fixture that can get even spread and 100% coverage with high intensity, that I believe would be the ticket for acropora ect. With t5 and mh, if you just took the bulb and placed it over a 24" deep tank, the par and coverage would be awful. Now you add a "quality" reflector to properly increase par and direct the light, all is great. Buy a low quality t5 or mh fixture then coverage and par are poor. So to make a long story short, that's my theory with "most" led fixtures, poor photon deliver.
 
The optics thing may well be possible with some fixtures. The other problem with optics is that the solution to the spotlighting problem increases the intensity problem even more. The optic increase the intensity of each individual piece but decrease the coverage, so the unit needs more individual pieces (each now of higher intensity) to fill in the gaps, thus compounding the potential for intensity issues.

Personally, I'm finding zero optics at 6" above a 21" tall tank works similar to a T5, coverage-wise (now I just need to work out light spillage). I'm not sure if it would be enough for Acro's, and I'll probably never know since I doubt they'd be happy in my tank. I will try out Monti's eventually. But 20 CREE's @ 80% (driver won't really go much higher, otherwise it would be a 100) with egg crate over the tank can easily support soft corals. I do wonder how necessary optics really are since even though I'm only doing soft corals right now, I'm also using less then half the suggested amount of LEDs.
 
The optics thing may well be possible with some fixtures. The other problem with optics is that the solution to the spotlighting problem increases the intensity problem even more. The optic increase the intensity of each individual piece but decrease the coverage, so the unit needs more individual pieces (each now of higher intensity) to fill in the gaps, thus compounding the potential for intensity issues.

Personally, I'm finding zero optics at 6" above a 21" tall tank works similar to a T5, coverage-wise (now I just need to work out light spillage). I'm not sure if it would be enough for Acro's, and I'll probably never know since I doubt they'd be happy in my tank. I will try out Monti's eventually. But 20 CREE's @ 80% (driver won't really go much higher, otherwise it would be a 100) with egg crate over the tank can easily support soft corals. I do wonder how necessary optics really are since even though I'm only doing soft corals right now, I'm also using less then half the suggested amount of LEDs.

if you replace the egg crate with clear screen DIY kit from Bulkreefsupply you could possibly get more light into tank. less will be reflected back onto your fixture if its the white egg crate
 
Here is my take:

Aquarium leds started becoming popular a few years ago and the first fixtures were all white leds and they worked... sort of, for some, but they really weren't very good and they were crazy expensive.

Then somebody realized that coral zoanthealia use more of the blue spectrum and fixtures started coming out with white & blue leds. Better than the just white, so early adopters sold their all whites to people who didn't know any better and bought the new white & blue fixtures. But there were still serious issues and good fixtures were still crazy expensive (which made it easy to sell off used leds). Corals were doing better, but a lot of people were killing corals with good fixtures that were too strong (bleaching/sunburn). Other people were having issues with cheap fixtures that were too small or too weak. So leds start to get a bad reputation, but they did work OK for some people.

Then dimmers got added and led fixtures improved. Not nearly as much bleaching. PAR meters started becoming popular and more common. More people were successful. But junk fixtures were still common and quality fixtures were still expensive and led's reputation didn't improve much. Some early adopters were mad. They had killed corals and paid lots of money for led fixtures they weren't happy with.

Then 'full spectrum' fixtures came out. They used several different blue & white leds along with UV, violet, red and even green. Now the fixtures were really pretty good at growing coral and safer and easier to use. They were still pretty expensive, but some good fixtures were coming out at somewhat lower prices. Older, led fixtures were still being sold used and even more people were getting screwed by fixtures that didn't work as well as the newer ones. And cheap junk led fixtures were still being sold, even by big companies with good reputations like Marineland. So led's reputation was still struggling to improve.

Now China has jumped into the market with both feet. Some of their early fixtures were just more junk. And some people hate them just because they are from China. But a couple of companies in China have been making good quality fixtures (maybe not Eco Tech, AI or Maxspect quality, but still good quality). And they have brought the price of a good quality led fixture down to the range of other forms of lighting like metal halides and even t5 fluorescents. But other Chinese and US companies continue to make and sell junk. So led's reputation is still struggling to improve. Many early adopters who were burned now hate leds, or at the very least, don't trust them. And they have good reason to feel that way. They got burned early on and there is still a lot of trash led fixtures being sold.

So do today's leds work? Heck yes! They grow corals just fine, they run very cool, they are more efficient and you don't replace bulbs every 9-18 months. I was a solid MH & t5 user until the end of 2012. I went to MACNA and saw lots of high quality, expensive and marginally expensive led fixtures. Then I learned about EverGrow in the Chinese led thread in this forum. I don't care where they are made. Heck, half the stuff we buy in the US is made in China, whether by US companies, Japanese companies, South Korean companies or Chinese companies. But EverGrow and Twilight seem to be making an effort to build and service better quality led fixtures. So a lot of new, lower end buyers are getting leds now. It's opened up a new market segment. But there are still less useful, older led fixtures being sold in the used market and there are still lots of new junk fixtures being sold as well. Some people buy the junk, get burned and say leds aren't any good. Others have bought better and newer and are having great success.

Over the past year I've owned and recommend Eco Tech Radions (still expensive though), OceanRevive (a new US company), EverGrow (Chinese) and Reef Breeders (but I think most or all of their fixtures are made by EverGrow). I've owned and DON'T recommend Marineland, SunSun and TaoTronics. I've never owned AI, Maxspect, BuildMyLED, Twilight or Kessil, but by reputation, I suspect they are good quality. I'm sure there are others as well, but those names just came to mind first. My first rule for buying an led fixture is, if you don't recognize the name of the company, don't buy it! At least not until you find out what their reputation is... or who makes them for that company. There are lots of brand names out there who don't make their own leds.

Why not TaoTronics???

Paul
 
I bought one about 8 months ago and it had no lenses (I didn't know better back then) and the fans are too loud. I tested the PAR and it's 25% or more lower than my EverGrow D120's with the lenses off (a recent test). I couldn't get any help regarding the fans so I ended up switching out them on my own with new fans I paid all of $24 for on Amazon. Now it's as quiet as my EverGrow and OceanRevive fixtures. So why doesn't TaoTronics spend the extra couple of bucks to use better fans? They have to know they are a problem. I looked at reviews on Amazon after I bought it (another thing I've learned to do) and there were quite a few noisy fan complaints. So they build cheap fixtures, cutting corners to save a buck, don't provide customer support and charge the same price that I can buy EverGrow fixtures for.
 
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My corals are doing just fine under LEDs. Some people way over think. Its still light people. If you have the right amount the coral will do fine.
 
And what makes this bad?

Is it the fact that their build quality is excellent?

Is it the fact that they have great fit and finish?

Is it the fact that the controllability is very polished and works with little explaination?

Is it the fact that they are available in white and black?


Where they score big bonus points is that they have been upgradable from generation to generation?
The fact that leds they use are far worse than many competitors such as maxspect. Cool white leds work, but they are not as good as neutral whites and give out a smaller spectrum. And many AI fixtures use just white and blue, so you don't get as good growth or color as with other leds. While it does vary from person to person, AI leds are scientifically not as good.
In addition, they use very low-binned leds; the leds that AI uses have low CRI, so the look to the eye is not as good as other fixtures. They even boast that the cool whites in the Hydra are (>70 CRI) which in fact is actually extremely bad. Again, everyone's eyes are different, and you can love the look of your AI.
And they have a lot of "fluff". Taking the Hydra as an example again, they have a ratio of
4 royals: 2 cool white: 1 410nm: 1 400nm: 1 deep red: 1 green.
The OSRAM "very deep blue" are actually just expensive royal blues with lower efficiency than Crees. The use of both 410nm and 400nm is something like a marketing ploy, except the 400nm are legitimately not as good as 410nm, which in turn are inferior to 430nm. The reds are greens are okay, but a much more preferable option would have been to add in cool blues, which are good for photosynthesis.


I know I'm going to be hated on for this post.
 
lets see those blue Acropora echinata under LEDs???? you won't because they don't exist!!!!

Are you serious? Or just trolling?

Grown from 1/2 inch and only a few branches ...
gnSOIb0.jpg
 
Are you serious? Or just trolling?

Grown from 1/2 inch and only a few branches ...

Do you have a pic that isn't over saturated with blue, more like a 14K look? While I believe it is possible to get a deep blue SPS under LED's, I haven't found one that the pic wasn't either Photoshopped or overly saturated with blue which changed the appearance.
 
Do you have a pic that isn't over saturated with blue, more like a 14K look? While I believe it is possible to get a deep blue SPS under LED's, I haven't found one that the pic wasn't either Photoshopped or overly saturated with blue which changed the appearance.

I completely agree with you, capturing an accurate picture is hard, but the blue is there for sure. I guess its just the way the iphone snaps a picture, I can take 2 pictures within 2 seconds and get completely different results...

Here's an older picture:
SMc58Hr.jpg
 
All I can comment on is what I've seen. I have a reefbreeders fixture over my 65 gallon. A friend of mine gave me a frag of tricolo acro. It was brown and sometimes would get blue tips. She ran MH on her tank.

I put it in my tank and it wasn't too long until green polyps started to show then a month or so after that it was a GORGEOUS dark blue with green polyps. Sadly an anemone walked across it and I had to move it. Once moved it bleached since it was then exposed to more light. It's slowly coming back though.
 
Thanks zangmann, it looks much better in that light, whatever you are doing, keep doing it. I completely agree with the difficulty of photography and blue light, it takes great skill and a great camera to accurately capture color in our tanks. I personally fail at it. :D The pic also shows something that seems to be common with led's, the tips look great but the branches and base usually have a different appearance, so instead of a solid color, it is great where recent growth is and average on the older parts of the coral. While I do not want to get into a led versus traditional light debate, it is very common to see corals that exhibit that partial color tendency under led's. Of course there are tanks under led's that don't exhibit it, but they are very rare on these forums.
 
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