SHOW OFF YOUR RARE amd HYBRIDS!!!
- Thread starter deepreefdiver
- Start date
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12758624#post12758624 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
Copps
How big is that thing?
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12766789#post12766789 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fittiger
Here is my yellow/scopas hybrid. I think he's pretty cool looking.
Not to be a party pooper, but I'm pretty sure thats a yellow scopas variant, not a yellow/scopas hybrid.
chrissreef
New member
^^ it's a hybrid
$.05
$.05
triggerfish1976
New member
The place where you got it from has it labeled as a yellow scopas variant and the good Dr.s are generally pretty accurate with their id's.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1363604
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1363604
Well they had this labeled as H. crispa and it obviously isn't. They also have this labeled as a lemonpeel aberration when, IMO, it is very likely a flavissimus x vroliki hybrid.
I highly respect the good Dr.'s and those that work for them, but they are all human and from time to time err. This is not to say that my fish is a hybrid and not a variant, but in their reply to my question asking about this they seem far from certain but made an educated guess given the available criteria to go upon.
My belief that it is a hybrid is based upon the stripe in the eyes and that the fish remains a yellow color throughout except when very stressed or sleeping while it clearly has ties to Z. scopas with the spots and the blue outline of the rear fins. I in no way think this is absolute.
just my $.02
Terra Ferma
New member
That Lemonpeel is most defitnely a Vrolicki cross and not strictly "abberant." I would assume most purchasers would know that but it would suck if someone got this thinking its an abberant specimen when it is not.
zemuron114
In Memoriam
I actually agree with LA on that lemonpeel. i have seen some weird looking hybrids but none have had the prominent blue on the forehead with the spot. A truly unique attribute.
however, it is quite possible it could be just another color form of the hybrids. either way, it is MUCH nicer than the regular hybrids that come in.
i also believe the scopas is a hybrid. I would like to see more pics if you have any?
however, it is quite possible it could be just another color form of the hybrids. either way, it is MUCH nicer than the regular hybrids that come in.
i also believe the scopas is a hybrid. I would like to see more pics if you have any?
The black tail and intense orange lining around the eyes are key indicators for me. This specimen is fantastic though. The lemonpeel is one of my top 5 favorite fish!! I've tried 3 in my reef because I love them so much and oddly?? enough they all left my LPS alone, but went after my acros.
Back to the LA lemonpeel aberration....I have to wonder if the blue area with black spots on the head will fade as the fish matures like the black spot with the blue ring on juvi lemonpeels....anyone have thoughts on that? Either way it's very cool!
I actually got this yellow scopas hybrid/variant as a replacement.
Also check my homepage, little red house.
Camera Phone Video:
triggerfish1976
New member
There is a picture of a similar lemonpeel on the cover of the latest Debelius/Kuiter Fish Atlas.
I think they refer to it as a Centropyge flavissimus X Centropyge vroliki as well.
I think they refer to it as a Centropyge flavissimus X Centropyge vroliki as well.
Terra Ferma
New member
I have never seen a Lemonpeel x Vrolicki less than about 3" - so to me the possibility of it losing the blue would be a consideration.
zemuron114
In Memoriam
i get hybrids in the 1/2-1" range from marshalls sometimes, but generally they are in the 2-3" (full grown) range. I have never had any with the bright blue on the forehead (and i've gotten quite a few from Marshalls and a handful from christmas) They have it listed on the Vanuatu stocklist as aberrant lemonpeel.... but they also have pylei fairies listed as rhomboids... its close. DNA test anyone? 
copps
Premium Member
Chaetodontoplus ballinae is protected in New South Wales waters, which encompasses its entire known range. On top of that, Ball's Pyramid falls within the Lord Howe World Heritage Zone, so even if it weren't protected it would be protected...
It has never been collected for the hobby yet, although this Japanese photo has confused some people...
Turns out it was a plastic fish... a pretty darn good one though!
The clarion passer hybrid is well documented from Baja California Mexico, where the clarion is the rarity. The passers in the Revillagigedos are waifs... born elsewhere where passers are found naturally. Their pelagic stage as eggs/larvae ride the currents on the surface and drop into the Revillagigedos once in a blue moon where they then live out their natural life and perhaps breed into the clarion population. They are not transients, as there is no way for an adult angelfish to travel hundreds of miles of open ocean water. A couple of clarions were seen by Gerry Allen at tiny Clipperton Atoll way back when, the only natural home of Holacanthus limbaughi... THAT would be another sweet hybrid... Anyway, here is a shot of one of the many passer/clarion hybrids taken...
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12766789#post12766789 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fittiger
Here is my yellow/scopas hybrid. I think he's pretty cool looking.
I grabbed one of these guys a few years ago when they first started entering the trade with regularity. I've spoken with Jack Randall about these, as both yellow scopas variants AND yellow/scopas hybrids are scientifically documented. Yellows and scopas are the most closely related species within Zebrasoma, and meristically they are near identical, with only color to differentiate them. Yellows and scopas have a relatively small overlapping range though, whereas full scopas are found from East Africa throughout the Pacific. So, if we could find out where these fish are entering the trade from that would at least possibly tell us 100%. I've seen too many whacky scopas, from bright yellow to black, and every combination in between, to be able to definitively say if these are hybrids or what... and I've seen plenty scopas with the line in the middle that is more prominent on yellows. Jack told me he cannot tell himself without DNA, and he is more qualified than anyone in the world and has seen more of both hybrids and yellow scopas than we have all seen combined probably. A yellow scopas was even documented from Mozambique! So for any of us to say for sure is just a guess. His surgeonfish book has a hybrid photo in it. Whatever they are, they are not that uncommon where they are collected as they have been coming in in decent numbers and wholesale for about the retail price of a yellow tang. I will try and trace down where they're coming from though again. If they are collected from outside of Z. flavescens range we'll know they're just variants... Anyway, here's mine...
copps
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12766859#post12766859 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
How big is that thing?
Jeremy, you're becoming a self confessed angelfish nut, so I think it's about time you start respecting them...
... that "thing" is about five inches... the specimen container its in that I use to photograph is 7 inches long by 6 inches high exactly for reference...<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12767435#post12767435 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fittiger
Well they had this labeled as H. crispa and it obviously isn't. They also have this labeled as a lemonpeel aberration when, IMO, it is very likely a flavissimus x vroliki hybrid.
I highly respect the good Dr.'s and those that work for them, but they are all human and from time to time err. This is not to say that my fish is a hybrid and not a variant, but in their reply to my question asking about this they seem far from certain but made an educated guess given the available criteria to go upon.
This fish is both an aberrant and a hybrid... an aberrant of a hybrid if you will...
The industry calls these guys "Grouchos" because they have the apparent bushy eyebrows like Groucho Marx. In the Marshalls where these flavissima/vrolikii hybrids are found they make up about 10% of the population of the two species. Of that 10%, only about 20% are "true hybrids", directly intermediate in color between the two species. The rest were "intermediate hybrids", those that were closer in color to one of the two species, and presumed to be hybrids of the hybrids. A very small number of these show aberrant coloration like the above "Groucho" guy. Years ago in Guam I saw this hybrid... at the time not knowing that vrolikii was found there... it remains the only hybrid angel I've seen in the wild, not counting the Atlantic "Holacanthus townsendi".In another cool story you won't find in any book, this hybrid was "discovered" in a small pet shop in Honolulu in 1969 called Modern Pet Center. This store is still in business and, I visit every time I'm there on Oahu, as they are a small shop with a great diversity of fish from around the world... they even bring in from the LA wholesalers! The guy who runs the little fish part is a very respected collector there and a wealth of info who's been around forever... Zemuron knows the place well too! Tieing it back into this thread, Modern Pet Center is also where a young Tony Nahacky worked as a youngster, who later collected the Nahacky pygmy angel shown on page 1 of this thread and had the species named after him!
Copps
LargeAngels
Premium Member
I have both hybrids from Vanuatu and Marshall. One in the 2" the other +3". They have the classic black tail and black on the back and the blue dots on the back and tail. All seem to loose the blue and the biggest one is loosing its black. Is it age or food. I don't know.
copps: I thought all those Kenya hybrids went to Asia first. Lucky.
copps: I thought all those Kenya hybrids went to Asia first. Lucky.
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LargeAngels
Premium Member
Here is some variants of those hybrids.
http://www.pacisland.com/index.php?option=dir_gallery&category_id=2&numpaging=25&page=1
http://www.pacisland.com/index.php?option=dir_gallery&category_id=2&numpaging=25&page=1
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12772984#post12772984 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
I grabbed one of these guys a few years ago when they first started entering the trade with regularity. I've spoken with Jack Randall about these, as both yellow scopas variants AND yellow/scopas hybrids are scientifically documented. Yellows and scopas are the most closely related species within Zebrasoma, and meristically they are near identical, with only color to differentiate them. Yellows and scopas have a relatively small overlapping range though, whereas full scopas are found from East Africa throughout the Pacific. So, if we could find out where these fish are entering the trade from that would at least possibly tell us 100%. I've seen too many whacky scopas, from bright yellow to black, and every combination in between, to be able to definitively say if these are hybrids or what... and I've seen plenty scopas with the line in the middle that is more prominent on yellows. Jack told me he cannot tell himself without DNA, and he is more qualified than anyone in the world and has seen more of both hybrids and yellow scopas than we have all seen combined probably. A yellow scopas was even documented from Mozambique! So for any of us to say for sure is just a guess. His surgeonfish book has a hybrid photo in it. Whatever they are, they are not that uncommon where they are collected as they have been coming in in decent numbers and wholesale for about the retail price of a yellow tang. I will try and trace down where they're coming from though again. If they are collected from outside of Z. flavescens range we'll know they're just variants... Anyway, here's mine...
I did not realize that yellow variants were so prevalant and therefore thought statistically that a hybrid would be more likely, especially since I believed they were rarely seen in the trade. If there is a widespread genetic factor in play, might this have originated from yellow/scopas hybrids?
Also your photos aren't showing up for me, do you have a link I could access?
