Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[BeanAnimal]

Re: greetings everyone

Re: greetings everyone

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14596772#post14596772 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Heavy Hittah
i am another who wants to use this setup, but need some help.

i have a non drilled AGA 75 gallon and at first i was going to do everything like beans design but now i decided to change it a tad.
If i went with a glass internal overflow half the length of the tank (or 24in x 5in x 5in) and i used 3 x1.5in bulkheads with a 30 gallon sump, what would be the best return pump to use so that the flow through the sump is not too fast?

There is nothing wrong with a high flow sump. In a traditional durso setup, high flow will carry bubbles through to the return pump. In a siphon setup, there are no bubbles. The choice in return pump size is based on many factors (other forms of flow, return compartment depth and size, sump equipment, etc).

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14598153#post14598153 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dzhuo
Thx Bean! One last question, is there a way to dial down the capacity with your design? My tank is 150g 3 1.5 bulkhead, with the primary drain in full normal operation, it's going to have a very high capacity, do you think there is a way to dial this down a little if I don't want that much overflow through the sump?

Flow through the sump is purely a function of the return pump size. If you want less flow, get a smaller return pump or valve the current pump back (on the discharge side).

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14602059#post14602059 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NVReefer
bean,
quick question, my display tank is going to be about 6ft higher (top) than the sump which will be located in the garage area. question is, the sump is going to be 7 to 8ft over (to the side) from the display, do you think there will be a problem with the horizontal run of the system when using your draining method?
vertical drop from tank overflow would be about 4ft then horizontal to sump about 7ft then 1ft into top of sump.

thanks again.

The open channel will not work properly and will instead gurgle because of the trapped air.

Make the horizontal run slanted and use 2.5" or larger PVC to allow for air space. The vertical to horizontal transition should be gradual, not a simple 90.

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14603769#post14603769 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NVReefer
bean,
making last minute design changes, and have another question, i can't edit my above post, so here it is......

drains 1in, (3) in middle as per original, but i am thinking of running my 3/4in returns slightly higher than the drains on each side and run through the bottom of overflow coast 2 coast with a 90 then terminate with ???
thoughts from you or anyone else about the returns run through the overflow. any pics would be great.
if it sounds good, is it wiser to run through bottom or straight out the front of the overflow.

i am trying to avoid the over the top return lines.

sorry for so many questions, but i am trying to get it right from the start.
thanks

I am not sure I follow... you want to run the returns THROUGH the overflow? Seems like a lot of work Drill more holes

 

[BeanAnimal]

Re: My build

Re: My build

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14604135#post14604135 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Falcn
The only problem I've encounted is cavitation and therefore noise introduced by the valve halfway down the pipe. I'v now added a second valve at the bottom and opened the mid point valve fully. Now works silently.

[/B]

It is perfectly acceptable to place the valve near the bottom. In most cases, placing the valve at the top should not produce noticable cavitation once the air is purged (I ran some numbers when I did the design) but it certainly is possible under some conditions.

I am glad the setup is working out for you

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14604362#post14604362 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dzhuo
what's the drain capacity you guys have? i have always told to shot for 3 to 5x of the tank volume in the sump. a single siphon will have ~2000gph or so (?), that seems a lot of flow through the sump. are any of you guys concern about the high turn around? or do you find a way to dial the flow down a bit any yet still make it silent? am i wrong to think that if the return pump is not powerful enough, the siphon will not be able to form because there won't be enough water in the overflow box?

The size of the return pump dicates the flow rate. The valve adjusts the siphon rate to one slightly less than the return pump rate and then the open channel handles the excess.

Sump turnover rates can vary greatly depending on your setup and needs. I prefer moderate to high flow sumps and refugia.

 

[NVReefer]

bean

bean

thanks for the replies,
yes, run the return through the back in the middle of overflow area, then 90 turn to exit the bottom of overflow into tank

any ideas how to make a Silent drain with my horizontal run. i don't see me using 2.5in piping.

 

[dzhuo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14604779#post14604779 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal

The size of the return pump dicates the flow rate. The valve adjusts the siphon rate to one slightly less than the return pump rate and then the open channel handles the excess.

ok, i know i am missing something. i thought (wrongly) that a 1.5" siphon will still perform like a 1.5" siphon even if the valve is dial down a bit. i guess that's not the case? ie, i can easily close the valve and have it perform like a 1" and i will still have a siphon and everything will still be silent.

i hope i make sense... just new to this stuff...

 

[BeanAnimal]

Run the setup as a full siphon (a herbie) and hope it stays in tune. Setup the other standpipe(s) as emergency drains.

 

[TurboGuru]

BeanAnimal, I have read thru a great deal of this thread and very much appreciate the work you have done on this subject. I am using the setup you described and I would like some input from you on a change that I made.

I recently started a new 90g build and put all of the details plus pictures in the build thread.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1561603

My change is a collector that I used to bring the three overflow pipes together to one so that I can use a filter sock. I do understand that changes to the system will effect the overall performance of it, but I Hope that this change will not be of the "critical variety." I would very much like your input before I glue it together.

Thanks in advance,
Joe

 

[norgemorir]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14597304#post14597304 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by teesquare
Matt:
I have a question about your proposed tank configuration: Your drawing ( which is very nice BTW...) does not show any trim or bracing around the top. Will the tank be an "Elos" style - or rimless tank? If not - you might want to model the trim/bracing on the drawing, and perhaps even do a cardboard mock up.
I say this - because the access to the "intake trough" ( forgive me BeAn - I am not sure what to call it if other than an overflow) IS tight - should you need to remove anything.
Just a thought ....( I only get one thought every 3 to 4 months <G>)
T

Good point. I will have trim on the tank, just didn't have time to download any components for it when doing the drawing. I'll measure again tomorrow and see what overhang the trim has.

Since this is a constant ongoing debate in my mind, I'm considering again the original method bean proposed but perhaps not coast to coast but leaving off 12". Someone in my club pointed out that in my 90 I won't be as concerned with height loss as I will with depth loss so going full internal may not be that bad. Most of the guys here seem to be ending up with around a 5"x5" or so internal overflow right.. 5" is hard to give up at least for me mentally.

 

[norgemorir]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14598788#post14598788 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by brackishdude
You've seen my tank in the calfo thread!

Each box has two stockman variants of the durso, and I never have gotten it as quiet as I want.

If I were to do it again, I would do as you have drawn with a single outside box rather than two, or at least put a third hole in each of the boxes to allow use of Bean's design.

Make the box as long as you can and add an extra hole to the back of the tank if you can.

Make sure that at only 5" tall your fittings will fit . I had to get creative, but then I have glass lids on mine with a 1/4" tee fitting in a hole drilled into the lid to further muffle the sound (makes the whole boox a durso, kinda, except you don't really limit the air flow).

How tall are your external overflows? I think I could afford to go taller if needed but I'm concerned about weight.. If I go, say 24" long and increase the height to 8", I'll end up with a max of 4+ gallons in the box which, if i remember correctly, is 32lbs... Can a siliconed on external box handle that weight?

 

[teesquare]

Matt:
Is it poosible to do an external box on you new tank design? Who is building the tank?
Even Perfecto now will ( if you beg <G>) install an external overflow box, and they can have a laser cut "slot" for feeding the external overflow box.
Not pushing a brand here - I was just surprised that they are now trying to compete with some of the smaller, more custom builders.
T

 

[MSU Fan]

Bean, i seem to get a periodic siphon on my system as it flushs every so often. Am I getting air into the system somewhere???

 

[BeanAnimal]

What pipe is flushing?

 

[teesquare]

Yep...need a better visual explanation... Hurry please - I need to replace the one I have of the rank bathroom in a truck stop, where the toilets are running non-stop ...<G>!
T

 

[MSU Fan]

I believe that its the siphon pipe (not the one with the air hose coming out of it).

 

[BeanAnimal]

Air may be leaking in. How often does the flush happen and how many times does it flush before the system corrects itself?

 

[Falcn]

Re: Re: My build

Re: Re: My build

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14604752#post14604752 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
It is perfectly acceptable to place the valve near the bottom. In most cases, placing the valve at the top should not produce noticable cavitation once the air is purged (I ran some numbers when I did the design) but it certainly is possible under some conditions.

I am glad the setup is working out for you

Thanks Bean. A wonderful design and your continued support through this thread is invaluable.

 

[tonyespinoza]

falcn - i noticed that you omitted the john guest fitting/air line to the open channel. do you find that you don't need it?

beananimal - is it optional? is there a case where it's not necessary?

(i'm running my system without it now, but i'm not sure if it's tuned right... i do hear a trickle.