Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[Pprice01]

I had moved my questions to a unique thread but was not comfortable with the responses that I was receiving.

Here is a link to the other thread if anyone wants to use it:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1966263&referrerid=240654

Thank you all.

Paul

 

[BeanAnimal]

Hopefully I can get some help here....

I am currently setting up a 30g cube tank. I didn't have the space to do 3 drains so I went with 2 (I don't have the upturned elbow drain/emergency).

Both of the drain elbows are at the same height, however, the drain I want to have the main siphon on has an extension on it to make it deeper.

while priming the system, I turned the valve on the siphon off and let the drain tube fill. Once it was filled and the system had enough reserve, I turned on the return pump and opened the valve.

Here is my problem, while my drain is keeping up with my Mag7, it is not silent. not by a long shot. I am still getting air. Can anyone tell me how to fix this? Thanks

If you follow the design schema from my site and the original post in the thread, your system will start properly. You either have an air leak in the standpipe or it discharges too deep in the sump. If it is not "silent" then the system is not adjusted properly or built according to the original design specification.

 

[BeanAnimal]

1. Overflow placement - is there any problem(s) with putting my overflow on the side instead of the back? For space reasons I think that this would work best, and I would opt for a 24" D tank so that I could get the whole 24" of surface skimming.

1. Does it make any difference if I just make a false wall 1/2" lower than the tank lip and 4" or so from the side (this will become my weir and overflow) and plumb up through the bottom of the tank for the bean setup? This based against the overflow in Bean's original design with a 4"x6" "weir/overflow box" created interally at the top of the tank. I can do either it just might be cheaper to do the wall instead of the "box" and I want to make sure that there isn't an inherent issue of one vs. the other.

2. Flow - are their any problems created by the peninsula style overflow on one end of the tank? I believe that I can have powerheads and the returns routed any way I want, so should I have other holes drilled for the returns, or maybe plan on running locline or something along the bottom rear wall with multiple outlets to blast the rocks? Should the flow go in a vertical circle from bottom under the overflow out to the opposite end of the tank and then up to some returs/powerheads which will then push it back along the top to the overflow? A little help here will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Paul

1) it will work just fine, albiet with reduced surface skimming
2)it makes no difference how you create the box or where the actual standpipes exit the box or tank, as long as the standpipe configuration stays the same.
3) I would concentrate on ensuring the corals locations get sufficient flow. Don't worry so much about how it interacts with the overflow.

 

[Pprice01]

Thank you very much Bean - I can't wait to try your system. Now I can order my tank.

 

[snulma1]

If you follow the design schema from my site and the original post in the thread, your system will start properly. You either have an air leak in the standpipe or it discharges too deep in the sump. If it is not "silent" then the system is not adjusted properly or built according to the original design specification.

Maybe I missed it in the beginning of the thread, but where does it say how deep the discharge is supposed to be?

Also, If I leave the siphon channel open, once the water gets high enough, the 2nd drain kicks in and I get the siphon start/toilet flush sound. So i'm thinking (and am probably wrong) that if I switch the tubing from one side to the other it can correct the issue

 

[snulma1]

Ok, so I tried switching the drain hoses between the 2 bulkheads and now the other side starts the siphon (the side where the ball valve is not). I may just go and get a 2nd ball valve and plumb it inline that way I can adjust wherever the siphon is going to run

 

[craigkunde1]

I am designing a sump that will have a 20g and 10g joined together buy bulkheads and pipeing. The 10g will be my refugium. The 20g will hold the return pump and skimmer. My questions are:
1: If I pipe the open channel into the refuigium will there be enough flow to keep things from getting stagnet? (I could add a powerhead to keep things moving if not)
2: Can I split the full siphon pipe just before the sump and have a pipe go into each tank?
If this is not clear enough let me know and I can do a quick sketch to illustrate this.

 

[craigkunde1]

bump

 

[TheFishMan65]

1) Maybe depends on how much water you flow. Risky since the more water you flow the greater the possibility is for noise.
2) I have read of people doing this, but there are several issue. I would not recommend this. Try teeing off the return pump.

 

[afgun]

My piping splits the siphon between my refugium and sump tanks; the open pipe dumps into the sump. The refugium spills over a weir and the water is siphoned directly to the pump chamber. Everything works great with plenty of flow. Of course my setup is powered by a Dart, so one would certainly expect a lot of flow that way.

 

[RocketSurgeon]

I split my return line to feed my fuge. I wanted all my water going through the skimmer.

 

[craigkunde1]

Thanks guys. For my setup I think I will try to tee off of the return line and increase the return pump size. This way I can place valve just before the sump to adjust the flow. Thanks again fishman for the idea!

 

[TheFishMan65]

I read of one person who had trouble (perhaps flow relate) where the water was siphoned out of the fuge and into the sump. Since there was no air in the pipe a secondary siphon was formed and level the sump and fuge. afgun have you seen this? How did you fix this? If you have a power failure what happens?

thanks just wondering if there is a simple solution.

 

[afgun]

A picture might help here...

The fuge is on the left. Ignore the holes in the bottom of the weir... bad idea and we cemented a plate to it sealing them up. Anyways, water in the fuge falls over the teeth (designed to contain the macro algae) into the box at the top front of the fuge. Water can't go below the bottom of the teeth. There is normally a down-turned elbow that is inserted into the bulkhead. This siphons water through the spaflex into the sump. Right now, the spaflex is sitting maybe 1/4" off the bottom of the sump, creating a restriction. So the siphon runs nice and slow (I will be putting a valve into the line and reconfiguring it so I can tune the rate better and not depend on water level in the sump as much). Anyways, when the pumps shut off, once the water in the fuge drains below the teeth, the siphon clears down to the bottom of the elbow and that's it. Ingenious? Hokey? You decide, but it works for me!

 

[TheFishMan65]

afgun, I understand. I want to know how tou feed water the to the fuge. I see a pipe in the back left (I assume water in). What is the teed to? The pipe with the valve barely visible on the left? When you power down does the fuge water level go to the bottom of the back pipe (incoming water)?

 

[afgun]

Got it. The feed in the upper left is my full siphon, teed. The other leg feeds the sump (you can see the gate valve at the top of the pic). I also have a gate valve on the leg feeding the refugium so that I can fine-tune it. Hopefully this picture shows the plumbing you're interested in:

The center pipe is my emergency drain and exits above the water level in the sump so it's noisy and noticeable. The right drain is the open channel. The air line isn't plumbed yet in the picture.

The pipe feeding the fuge is 1 inch or so below the surface of the water when the pump is running. The water raises about 1/4 inch above the bottom of the teeth, IIRC during operation. When it shuts off, the water drains down to the bottom of the teeth.

Any more questions about my setup that I can answer for you?

--andrew

 

[TheFishMan65]

Thanks, I think I know what is going on now.

 

[golf nut]

What's all the other stuff?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Ok, so I tried switching the drain hoses between the 2 bulkheads and now the other side starts the siphon (the side where the ball valve is not). I may just go and get a 2nd ball valve and plumb it inline that way I can adjust wherever the siphon is going to run

I don't mean to sound like a broken record... but the design works properly if built to the specification. You do not have to guess which standpipe will siphon and which will flow open channel.

Your standpipes are exiting too deep into the sump or they are not built as described on my site or the begining of this thread

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am designing a sump that will have a 20g and 10g joined together buy bulkheads and pipeing. The 10g will be my refugium. The 20g will hold the return pump and skimmer. My questions are:
1: If I pipe the open channel into the refuigium will there be enough flow to keep things from getting stagnet? (I could add a powerhead to keep things moving if not)
2: Can I split the full siphon pipe just before the sump and have a pipe go into each tank?
If this is not clear enough let me know and I can do a quick sketch to illustrate this.

1) no, not a chance. In any case, "low flow" refugiums don't work too well (for many reasons).

2) In theory yes, but the "branches" of the siphon need to be large eough that they do not interact with the overall flow rate, even then you may have fluctuations that make the systm unstable. That is, the valve at the split must be the device the produces the back pressure to control the siphon rate. The pipes after the valve will have to be at least the same size as the pipe feeding the valve AND they can not be submerged at their exits. If they are submerged, then each will interact with the siphon rate and could easily cause it to oscillate.