Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[nemosworld]

I can answer number 1.
on any large tank you will do best to get a 1 inch drain and 3/4 return as a minimum, unless you only plan to run your return at about 2-300gph, even then i would recommend a 1 inch drain.
this of course is just my opinion.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Danner Mfg recommends that the return plumbing be double the pump output nozzle so I'll have a minimum 1-1/2" return and probably a Mag 18 or 24 pump @ 6' head. So that would be approx 1100 or 1600 GPH, respectively.

I guess I see your logic regardless, because you can always crank the shutoff valve to lower the flow rate. However, you cannot increase the hole for the bulkhead if 3/4" is too small unless you want to empty & drain the tank...

1" it is.

So...#2 - is a 2' trough along one side adequate for up to 2000 GPH or do I really need the full 4' along the back side?

 

[nemosworld]

i think that depends on your drain size and your overflow box size. if you do it on the side, you should probably build the box from bottom to top. this will allow the drain to keep up with the return, should you push 2000gph.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Every design I've seen so far has about a 6"x6" box along the top only, with the bulkheads just below the top. What kind of box are you referring to???

 

[nemosworld]

I was referring to a box similar to the ones used for drains drilled at the bottom of the tank. but i guess a 6x6 would work, never did it so i can't be for sure, on my 110 gal 5ft tank, it came with a huge overflow box in the center of the tank on the back glass, drilled with to drain holes for 1 inch pvc. my return pump was rated for 1100gph if i ran it full throttle, 1x1inch pvc would not keep up, running two may have have, but it sounded like a water fall in my sump area.

I later removed it, and got two small boxes overflow boxes and looped the return back into the sump to slow the return.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Just from what I've read so far, it sounds like you didn't terminate your main line under the water line of the sump. From what I read, that's what creates the full siphon and eliminates turbulence in the pipe, increasing the flow to 2000 GPH in a 1" pipe.

I think your answer/suggestion is more centered along a standard tooth-type overflow box. If you look at BeanAnimal's design on his website, there are no teeth on the overflow, it is a straight edge, the 'teeth' are on the down-turned intake on the full siphon line. Therefore, you get a much greater unimpeded potential flow rate across a 2 foot max line. If the water in the tank is 1/2" higher than that line, then 2x4 = 8 square feet x 0.5 inch (x 1 foot/12 in) would be 0.33 cubic feet of water that would effectively be 'above' the top of the overflow. 7.48 gallons per cubic foot x 0.33 = 2.5 gallons above the overflow, so I don't think there will be an issue getting 0.55 gallons/second over this overflow height using a 2 foot end-position box.

So I'm still looking for an answer to this. Is there a "minimum width" requirement associated with beananimal's design that is shown on his site?

 

[afgun]

So I'm still looking for an answer to this. Is there a "minimum width" requirement associated with beananimal's design that is shown on his site?

No. The smaller the width, the higher the water flowing over it. The benefit to a longer lip is more surface skimming. If you are space or design-restricted to a smaller width to the overflow, it won't change how the Beananimal drains work. You'll just have less surface skimming.

 

[NEK-ap24]

Does this part exist or not?

Does this part exist or not?

I am still looking for the correct reducing elbow.

I tire of responses like...."it should be easy to find at your local plumbing store or online."

I have tried and I have been told that a 1.25"x1" reducing street 90 (that is 1.25" opening reducing to a 1" street 90 degree elbow) does not exist.

Yet I still read people saying, I got my elbows from flexypvc or other sources....however when I call, they say that they don't exist.

yes, I can make a similar product using a reducing 90 and a short piece of 1" pipe as a bushing to fit into a 1" bulkhead. But then why are people still refering to these parts as a single unit.

I want my overflow box to be as thin (front to back) as possible, so creating the piece is not optimal because it would force the design to be longer to be able to fit it into the bulkhead.

I have emailed BeAn about it, but he is refusing to answer emails about this design, becuase of the numerous messages he gets.

I have tried Savko, Ace, FlexyPVC, Lasco, and Nibco as well as many aquarium stores, all without success.

If they exist could someone please refer me to the source, preferably with a part # I would very much appreciate it. If other have created this piece or done the project without it (i.e. with just a 1" street elbow into a 1" bulkhead) and not had any issues with vortex turbulance etc.

 

[BeanAnimal]

NEK,

Please choose your words more carefully my friend. I have not "refused" to anwer you, I simply don't see every question that comes into my email account, let have the time to pen a thoughtful answer or search the web for part numbers, vendors, supplier, manufacturer or other data every time somebody asks.

That said, i do my best to keep up with this and other threads where I am able to help people. My email address is obsfucated on my site for a reason, I don't check my "hobby related" email very often at all. My website clearly directes those with questions here to the RC thread for help. In that way, the entire community can benefit from the answers and the limited time that myself and others can provide to answering those questions.


To your question:

The fittings (Reducing "street" 90's) exist and are manufactured by several defferent companies such as Lasco, Charloote, etc. It is simply a matter of checking their catalogs.

As mentioned in the emial I sent you here are some Lasco part numbers I found in about 2 minutes using google and the manufacturers website.

P/N 406-168 1 x 1.25 SPIGOT x SOCKET
P/N 406-211 1 x 1.5 SPIGOT x SOCKET
P/N 406-249 1 x 2 SPIGOT x SOCKET
Reducing 90s also come in SPIGOT x SPIGOT and SOCKET x SOCKET configuration

They can be had at
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/MU...Fittings-_-5WPA9&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=5WPA9

http://www.national-pool-care.com/servlet/the-29387/LASCO-FLUID-DISTRIBUTION-PRODU/Detail

...and numerous other places. This is just one manufacturer, as mentioned in the email, visiting the online catalogs of other PVC manufacturers will yield more part numbers and online stores.

Good luck with your setup, and post back here if you have more questions. I am sure myself or someboby will be able to provide answers.

 

[NEK-ap24]

Bean,

Thanks for the reply, I will freely admit that my tone is showing my frustration with coming up empty in my search thus far.

My stating your "refusal" was meant only as you were choosing not to reply to emails, as there were too many of them coming in.

I was not aware that you were still following this thread.

I did check numerous places before posting. I also recieved several false leads that I checked, double checked and triple checked.

It appears that even the Lasco part numbers that you provided:
P/N 406-168 1 x 1.25 SPIGOT x SOCKET
P/N 406-211 1 x 1.5 SPIGOT x SOCKET
P/N 406-249 1 x 2 SPIGOT x SOCKET

are not "street" elbows, and are not Spigot x socket elbows either. They are just socket elbows with a reducing female end, however the street size of that same end appears to still be 1.25/1.5/2.0 respectively. It appears on the Lasco website/catalog that the outside (1") side will not fit into a 1" bulkhead.

The picture you posted appears to be a Mueller part, which looks very promising from Grainger. I had not found them in any of my Google searches.

Thank you for responding and I appologize for my demanding tone.

 

[golf nut]

nevermind

 

[BeanAnimal]

My stating your "refusal" was meant only as you were choosing not to reply to emails, as there were too many of them coming in.

Most folks would read that I actively refused to help. The only people I refuse to help are those who do not send me beer...

I was not aware that you were still following this thread.

18,300+ posts... 3 on the previous page, the last dated 2/3/2011

It appears that even the Lasco part numbers that you provided:
P/N 406-168 1 x 1.25 SPIGOT x SOCKET
P/N 406-211 1 x 1.5 SPIGOT x SOCKET
P/N 406-249 1 x 2 SPIGOT x SOCKET

are not "street" elbows, and are not Spigot x socket elbows either. They are just socket elbows with a reducing female end

The part numbers I posted are reducing street elbows as indicated by the LASCO product description. The photos on the LASCO website are just generic representations, they are not actual photos of each product.

http://www.americangranby.com/Produ...JFU1NVUkUgRklUVElOR1MgLSBTQ0ggNDA7NDA2LTI0OTs=

Is the 2"x1" part, but the photo shows the same generic picture (not a 2"x1" reducing elbow)

however the street size of that same end appears to still be 1.25/1.5/2.0 respectively. It appears on the Lasco website/catalog that the outside (1") side will not fit into a 1" bulkhead.

Yes, they make NON REDUCING "standard" street elbows as well, not what I have posted part numbers or photos of

The picture you posted appears to be a Mueller part, which looks very promising from Grainger. I had not found them in any of my Google searches.

Yes, the grainger is the Mueller part, it is the SAME part number as the LASCO part of the same configuration. The LASCO part has a ridged outer profile, the Mueller part has streamlined transition. I have both in my parts bin, along with a few others.

If you look in most of the major PVC vendors catalogs you will find what you are looking for. PVC fittings are sold in several major groups.

DWV
Potable Supply
Conduit
Pool Spa
Irrigation
Central Vacuum

Each vertical market has its own group of oddball (but common to the market) set of fittings aside from the good ol' standby's. If you dig through a few catalogs or niche websites (esp pool-spa and central-vac) you will find all kinds of cool but strange PVC fittings that have standard SLIP and NPT connectors.

Have fun

 

[SkyReef]

Advice on Return Lines from BeanAnimal's Design

Advice on Return Lines from BeanAnimal's Design

Hey, all:

Status of Implementing Bean Animal's Design on 29-Gal. Nano Cube:

I am nearing the final stages in putting together the BeanAnimal design on my 29-gallon Nano Cube, which utilizes a 1-inch plumbing system throughout. I have built the overflow box, drilled the glass holes, installed the bulkheads, glue-welded the PVC on the backside of the glass holes, painted the PVC jet black (which is kind of cool), built and installed a sump below, put a sump-divider panel in the sump, drilled a return-line hole in the sump, bought a protein skimmer for my sump, and ordered the final plumbing fittings for the three stand-pipes: the NPT/PVC adaptor and threaded PVC caps for the top of the standing tubes. So I am almost there...

Question Re Return Line:

I want to have the return line go to two tanks (the main tank and a nearby 12-gallon BioCube, being used as a dedicated refugium). I also want the flow on the Refugium (side tank) to be somewhat low. I intend to have the 1-inch return line from the sump, being pumped by an Iwaki external pump, go to a "Tee" in the line, sending some return water to the main tank, and some return water to the side-tank refugium. (I also intend to run the pump full blast, accommodated by a return-to-sump PVC Line for excess water pumped that is not being returned to the tanks above, as called for by common sump-return-line design.)

Thereafter, I want to split the return water to the left and right sides of each tank. Recapping: a 1-inch return PVC line...split by a "tee" in the PVC, and for each tank's separate return, further split into two by a "tee" or "y" splitter to the left and right side of each tank via Loc-Line Ball-Socket Flexible tubing. How big should that Lock-Line Ball-Socket Flexible tubing be?

How should I go about doing that, if I want to use the Loc-Line Ball-Socket Flexible Tube? Should I use 3/4" Loc-Line or 1/2" Loc-Line. I presume that 1" return PVC to a "Tee" should ideally be "split" into a 1/2 loc-line ball-socket flexible tube for each tank, each tank have water returned on its left and right side with a 1/2-inch lock line ball-socket flexible tube. But I could be wrong. How should I go about doing this?

All suggestions greatly appreciated! Thanks.

 

[BeanAnimal]

A few notes:

1) There is no need for a "return-to-sump" branch. Centrifugal pumps can safely be throttled back to produce a lower flow rate.

2) In general, you should use the largest plumbing that you can accomodate in each stage of the system. That said, you are talking about throttling a pump that is too large to begin with. That means that you have had pressure to spare so there is no need to go crazy with the larger loc-line, as IT will help to reduce the flow of your pump.

3) You only want to use Loc-line in or above a tank. It is very prone to salt creep, as the jounts are not air-tight. Hard plumb or use flex PVC for the main plumbing and only use loc-line for a few joints at the end so that you can direct flow.

 

[SkyReef]

A few notes:

1) There is no need for a "return-to-sump" branch. Centrifugal pumps can safely be throttled back to produce a lower flow rate.

2) In general, you should use the largest plumbing that you can accomodate in each stage of the system. That said, you are talking about throttling a pump that is too large to begin with. That means that you have had pressure to spare so there is no need to go crazy with the larger loc-line, as IT will help to reduce the flow of your pump.

3) You only want to use Loc-line in or above a tank. It is very prone to salt creep, as the jounts are not air-tight. Hard plumb or use flex PVC for the main plumbing and only use loc-line for a few joints at the end so that you can direct flow.

Hi, Bean:

Thanks for the quick response. I'm trying to follow what you are recommending. Please bear with me, as I don't understand plumbing nearly as well as you do. So what size PVC are you recommending? You say generally go with the largest size plumbing that can be used in each stage.

So would the following scheme be acceptable?
(1) Sump Output: 1-inch PVC;
(2) connected to input of IWAKI MD-40-RT pump;
(3) whose output is connected to 1-inch PVC;
(4) going straight up to a sideways "tee," where water will be diverted out to the right to the the side tank (which will use a 3/4"-plumbing system throughout because it's only a 12-gallon, low-flow, dedicated refugium);
(5) given that this is a "sideways"-positioned "tee," the water will not really be diverted for the portion going to the main tank, as it is positioned on the "straightaway" (the sideways "tee" looks like this: |--) portion of the PVC. Hence, the water will be going "straight throught" the "tee," up to the main tank. (Quick tangent: Will that sideways "tee" work, or will not enough water flow out the side of that "tee" to the side tank, requiring that I re-position the sideways "tee" to a "dead-end" position?);
(6) 1-inch PVC is installed on the opposite end of the sideways "tee," directing water up to the main tank;
(7) at a point higher up, the 1-inch PVC hits a reducing "tee" that splits the water into two, 1/2" PVC lines (this time the "tee" is positioned in a "dead-end" orientation), one half the water is sent in the 1/2" PVC to the left side of the main tank, and one half the water is sent in the 1/2" PVC to the right side of the main tank;
(8) Then, the one-half-inch PVC will elbow around the top rim of the tank, into a few, and only a few, Loc-Line joints, for aiming the output of the water, just above the tank?
(9) Or do you recommend terminating the return lines below the waterline of the main tank?
(10) the same, general scheme would be used on the 3/4" plumbing return lines for the side-tank, dedicated refugium, with the water being dialed down to 1/2"-PVC after the split to the left and right sides of the refugium.

Thanks for sharing your helpful insights.

 

[BeanAnimal]

In general, the smaller the diameter of the pipe, the more it will resist flow.

So given the same pump, any section of smaller diameter plumbing will reduce flow by some factor more than the same section of larger diameter plumbing.

A straight-through path into a TEE creates less resistance. Yes the flow leaving through the ARM of the TEE will have slightly less flow due to resistance, but remember the system is under pressure, so fluid WILL flow through both sections.

Look at it this way, you have two paths that split off from a single path. One is longn narrow and winding, the other short wide and straight. Which path can you hike the fastest? Each "path" through your plumbing has resistance to flow. Both (all) of the paths add up and present the pump with a total resistance (we call it total head loss).

In most cases we wish to minimize HEAD LOSS so that we can get the most out of our pumps (gallons pumped per watt consumed). Or looked at from the opposite perspective, we choose a pump that will give us a desired flow for a GIVEN head loss in a piping system.

In your case, you have chosen a pump that is LARGER than what is needed. That means that you can [somewhat] ignore the extra head loss due to smaller plumbing, as that head loss will take the place of the VALVE that you would otherwise use to restrict the flow coming from the pump.

So, use larger plumbing where you can (starting from the pump upward) and downsize it as needed for aesthetic reasons. Nobody expects you to have 1.5" returns feeding your nano.

I hope that helps you more than me trying to specify what size each piece of your plumbing should be.

 

[medicreefer]

I'm assuming some of my questions may have been addressed somewhere in the past 100+ pages but I haven't been able to find the information. Sorry if this is redundant.

I'm wondering what effect a long horizontal run in the drain pipes will have on this system. The plans for my 120 reef build keep changing, mostly due to indecisiveness on the part of
my "better-half" as to where the tank should go. Right now the likely option would have the fish room sump further away than I'd like. This would involve a lengthy horizontal run in my standpipes. I will have an external coast to coast overflow with 3 x 1" bulkheads for a beananimal system. The 1" standpipes will drop about 24" vertically then will travel horizontally through a wall for about 10 feet before dropping the last few inches into my sump.

My questions are:
1- Will this affect my full siphon drain capacity due to increased friction or will it be negligible?

2- Will it affect the full siphon in any other way?

3- What will the effect be on the open channel? I'm thinking this will be my main problem as I know the open channel should have free-falling/cascading water, and the horizontal portion may cause an issue with this. I was thinking about compensating for this by using 1.5" PVC for the horizontal portion of the open channel. Hopefully that way it would allow the cascading water to just flow along the horizontal portion without completely filling it with water. Would that work?

4- Will I have serious issues adjusting and fine tuning this system set up like this? I don't mind a lot of adjusting when I first set it up but I don't want to play with it every time I stop and start my return pump.

5- Finally, I'd like to set my gate valve for the siphon line in my fish room, just above the sump, rather than behind my tank. Would that be ok or would it not work as well?

Thnaks.

Bump.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Long horizontal runs may prevent the open channel from running properly. Increasing the horizontal pipe diameter (to allow free air space above the channel) is not a bad idea, nor is using a sweep to transition from vertical to horizontal.

The effect on the siphon rate is purely a function of the added resistance created by the longer pipe run. While it will reduce the overall flow rate, it will only be by a small percentage for any reasonable length run with reasonable sized pipe. You may or may not hear the water running though the horizontal open channel pipe (many variables).

The bigger issue may actually be getting the siphon to start in a reliable manner. Too large a pipe and the velocity will not be enough to move (purge) the entrained air, or even fill the horizontal run. Too small a pipe and the the system can easily air lock. You may have to play around with different configurations.

The adjustment valve should be at the sump end, otherwise the horizontal run on the siphon standpipe will tend to run partially full and not at a siphon (again based on many variables).

 

[SkyReef]

In general, the smaller the diameter of the pipe, the more it will resist flow.

So given the same pump, any section of smaller diameter plumbing will reduce flow by some factor more than the same section of larger diameter plumbing.

A straight-through path into a TEE creates less resistance. Yes the flow leaving through the ARM of the TEE will have slightly less flow due to resistance, but remember the system is under pressure, so fluid WILL flow through both sections.

Look at it this way, you have two paths that split off from a single path. One is longn narrow and winding, the other short wide and straight. Which path can you hike the fastest? Each "path" through your plumbing has resistance to flow. Both (all) of the paths add up and present the pump with a total resistance (we call it total head loss).

In most cases we wish to minimize HEAD LOSS so that we can get the most out of our pumps (gallons pumped per watt consumed). Or looked at from the opposite perspective, we choose a pump that will give us a desired flow for a GIVEN head loss in a piping system.

In your case, you have chosen a pump that is LARGER than what is needed. That means that you can [somewhat] ignore the extra head loss due to smaller plumbing, as that head loss will take the place of the VALVE that you would otherwise use to restrict the flow coming from the pump.

So, use larger plumbing where you can (starting from the pump upward) and downsize it as needed for aesthetic reasons. Nobody expects you to have 1.5" returns feeding your nano.

I hope that helps you more than me trying to specify what size each piece of your plumbing should be.

Thanks, Bean. Your explanation is very helpful.

 

[Poomba]

Ive started to put together the plumbing for my 75 gallon display tank, which is feeding into a 40br sump. Using 1.5 inch schedule 80 plumbing.

How do I make sure the coast to coast overflow is level in the tank, without using a level?

Can I measure from the trim down?

My other question is how do I determine the placement of the holes for the bulkhead?