Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[scott26]

I had it running with out an airline attached for a while since I didn't want to attach a blue airline to the top since it would be distracting. It works great and I am sure the emergency could handle the flow if needed and if the siphon gets clogged but it is a fail safe system and you are taking away one of those fail safes.

It isn't really that distracting with the right fittings. I used a 90 out of the top of the pipe and used black tubing connected to the back side of the emergency elbow it looks good and is not seen unless you know what you are looking for since my light blocks most of it anyway.

I will try to post pics later if you want.

 

[Mikei70]

I am unable to use this system due to my tank only having one drain and one return, but I wanted to stop in to give my appreciation for all the info in this very long thread. From what I learned here, I was able to set up a siphon system that works for me. Before this I had just a strainer-type drain that was noisy and low-capacity. I had tried putting in an airline to quiet it down with some success, but I lost some water capacity on the drain.

Anyway, I don't mean to take this off-topic-- I just wanted to say thanks.

 

[CJBROWN]

new 75 build, overflow questions

new 75 build, overflow questions

I finally got to test run my new build. All in all it works as as it should, many thanks to Beananimal and everyone here for some great info on how to set this all up.

Pics below...
I built an external overflow with two 11" by 1/2" high slots in the back of the tank. Three 1" BH's, Eheim 1260, 75 gallon with 20L sump. I have not installed the baffles in my sump yet, this was just a test run on an older acrylic tank in the garage to make sure there weren't any leaks before moving it into the house. I'm happy to report NO LEAKS!!! :thumbsup:

It took quite a lot of fine tuning with the ball valve on the full siphon line, and I think a gate valve would be much easier to make minute adjustments with. That said, it is almost fully closed and still flows enough water that only a trickle finds it's way to the second open drain with the air vent. The third standpipe is the emergency and it only sees water on startup occasionally, only if the full siphon is slow to start. The vent for the open stand converts it to full siphon successfully as designed.

I get good flow, calculating about 450gpm. One pipe will handle the volume but it's just about completely full. The full siphon will throughput WAY more water than the pump puts out, so it has to be throttle way back.

Questions...
1. What recommendations would you experts make?
2. Did I size my drains too large for 450gph?
3. Is it normal to close off the full siphon and have the overflow box water level at half way up the open standpipe?
4. The system is silent (the pump too, nice recommendation!) with the exception of some gurgling from the air that comes down with the trickle of water from the open standpipe. I'm afraid I will get some micro-bubbles in the final setup although I didn't see any in the tank.
5. Will I need a screen of some sort on the drain slots from tank to overflow? I went ahead and bought some egg-crate plastic to glue on the outside, and can use it to cover my 'fuge area in the sump.
6. Should I fasten down or stay the drain lines or will they function as built?

I have also drilled my return line at water level so it breaks siphon on shut down and the sump holds all back flow to still water. I was going to drill for a CL system but decided one or two powerheads will be cheaper, simpler, easier to maintain, and can be setup on a timer block to alternate.

Brand new here, so feel free to offer suggestions. I still have time to make alterations before actually setting up with saltwater.

BTW, it's running full-tilt in these pics. In the last image you can see I've zip-tied the vent tube for the open pipe to the top of the emergency one.

 

[RocketSurgeon]

Looks good.

I would paint the open channel (since it stands out above the tank) black.

If you can support your siphon line, it wouldn't hurt.

I would also lower the open channel. I would only have it about 1/4" higher than the siphon. This may lower the amount of water in the overflow box.

Lastly, I see an electrical plug on the floor next to the sump. Realizing this is a temporary setting, Please be careful. Water can follow the cord down to the plug and short out (the least case) or shock and potentially kill (the worst case). It's usually the short, temporary settings where we let our guard down. Happens all the time with weed trimmers and circular saws.

 

[NEK-ap24]

What did you use on the back of the tank to black it out? Did you use the same thing on the overflow?

I have been thinking about this, as I don't want to paint the back then attach the overflow, nor do I want saltwater to come in contact with paint on the inside of my external overflow.

 

[TheFishMan65]

You could lower all 3 and maybe get the open hidden from view. Lowering just the siphon may make it easier to tune and because of that allow tuning such that less water goes down the open channel (and therefor quieter).

It wouldn't hurt to support all three lines.

 

[CJBROWN]

What did you use on the back of the tank to black it out? Did you use the same thing on the overflow?

I have been thinking about this, as I don't want to paint the back then attach the overflow, nor do I want saltwater to come in contact with paint on the inside of my external overflow.

Krylon Fusion, inside of tank. It dyes the plastic and is inert once cured.

I had the same quandry. If you glue a box onto the back of the tank then there is no way to hide the glue lines if you paint the outside.

In my case the tank was a recycle; it had several years of use, was scratched though not deeply, and had a built in sump system on the inside of the tank. For $60 I didn't mind doing some restoration work on it. I removed the internal box by breaking it out and grinding down remaining acrylic and glue lines, then completely buffed the inside and outside viewing areas and painted the back panel. The flaws left on the bottom and back will be hidden by substrate and algae growth. Basically I got a $500 tank for $60 by doing some restoration work. It turned out beautifully. :bounce3:

Rocket - the open standpipe will be hidden by a tall hood. I'm still trying to decide on lighting....cost vs. output. What-to-do what-to-do.

I lowered the siphon line to assist in restarting after a shut down. Did not help. I finally did get the system tuned so very little water is coming down the open line, so it's very quiet. It also starts and stops without issue.

I'm not sure how to eliminate the few bubbles and noise from that trickle from the vented standpipe, probably not possible. Just a few bubbles, but I'm concerned they will find their way into the tank. They will probably get blocked by the sump dividers. I will probably lower the open standpipe about a half inch, that will drop the overflow box water level the same amount. What I find interesting is that the water lever runs mid-T on the vented standpipe regardless of the heights of any of the standpipes.

 

[ikoy]

can i use 2pcs. 3/4" bulkheads for the overflow and 1pc. 3/3 for return.. my tank is 120g.. 4x2x2.

 

[CJBROWN]

can i use 2pcs. 3/4" bulkheads for the overflow and 1pc. 3/3 for return.. my tank is 120g.. 4x2x2.

Since I just set mine up and did all the testing and tuning I can tell you it would depend on your pump output.

I'm calculating my flow at about 450gph and the 1" siphon drain has to be almost closed off to keep it from draining the overflow. Another factor is your plumbing parts, for example a 1" ball valve has about a 3/4" internal diameter. I used 1" thin wall pvc and 1-1/4" ball valve to keep a full 1" inside diameter throughout the run. I now find it has WAY more capacity than I need. It is also difficult to fine tune a ball valve, they are really tight and hard to turn so I'm thinking of installing a 1" gate valve below the tank and leave the ball valve open. If a 1" gate valve has a smaller inside diameter I"m still going to have more than enough flow for my pump output.

For a 120 I would think you would want at least 600-700gph depending on your sump size and config. A 3/4" full siphon if it was full diameter through the run, would probably do it. Obviously you would want to set it up and test it. Setup the second open drain with the vent to be converted to a full siphon as well if the water level reaches higher than its intake level - bean style. The problem is that you would not have a third standpipe as a back up should one of the others get plugged for some reason, and a resulting flood if your sump has enough volume to overfill the tank.

My 1" return line is pumping quite a lot of water at 450gph. For a higher flow you might consider a Y-fitting and run two returns into the tank. Just a thought. You're still going to want more tank flow, so powerheads or CL for a couple more thousand gph.

 

[dogstar74]

Just a small thing, I would place the ball valve closer to the sump than to the display. Just my .02

Aaron

 

[O3reefer]

Need help with this setup

Need help with this setup

I have followed the designs to the t, and now I have it running and can't get it to run properly. What is happening is that I can't get rid of the running water sound in the full siphon. Every little while it gets silent, but it sounds like its doing a small swishing noise by the ball valve every 5-10 seconds. I have a constant trickle of water noise. Is there something I am doing wrong?

 

[Mikei70]

I have followed the designs to the t, and now I have it running and can't get it to run properly. What is happening is that I can't get rid of the running water sound in the full siphon. Every little while it gets silent, but it sounds like its doing a small swishing noise by the ball valve every 5-10 seconds. I have a constant trickle of water noise. Is there something I am doing wrong?

Is it possible a connection near the ball valve is sucking in air?

Maybe try temporarily taping it up to see if the noise stops, then if that is the case, rejoining the pipe.

 

[O3reefer]

Thanks for the response. I have a union right above the ball valve and I think its as tight as i can get it. As far as pipe joints/connections go I am positive that I left no gaps for any air. the only place could be the union, but I doubt it. I will try to tighten more. Is there anything else you can think of?

 

[Mikei70]

Thanks for the response. I have a union right above the ball valve and I think its as tight as i can get it. As far as pipe joints/connections go I am positive that I left no gaps for any air. the only place could be the union, but I doubt it. I will try to tighten more. Is there anything else you can think of?

Any chance air is caught in the valve itself? Maybe open it wide or something and see if it clears?

I'm just guessing here, but noise usually = air.

 

[O3reefer]

Anybody know how to fix, Bean?

Anybody know how to fix, Bean?

Here is the specs for my system.
70g cube w/ 20g sump
sicce 3.0 return pump
beananimal drain system exactly
caflo overflow
i have tried to adjust the drain valve on the siphon pipe but cant get rid of the water noise. If it is open to much it just gurgles. If not open enough eventually the open siphon kicks in. I have drilled the small hole in the drain pipe in the sump right above the water line (which I assume is big enough).

I am at a loss. Do I need a different return pump or could it be something else?
I can post pictures if needed.

AJ

 

[TheFishMan65]

I am confused so you get at least one vote for pictures.

 

[CJBROWN]

+1
What size drains and what size valve?
Mine was doing that 'till I closed it down and got all the air out of it, then it was a full siphon and silent.

 

[dogstar74]

What is happening is that I can't get rid of the running water sound in the full siphon. Every little while it gets silent, but it sounds like its doing a small swishing noise by the ball valve every 5-10 seconds. I have a constant trickle of water noise. Is there something I am doing wrong?

Noise means Air water mixture.

Any chance air is caught in the valve itself? Maybe open it wide or something and see if it clears?

I'm just guessing here, but noise usually = air.

Bingo, the water from above the valve isn't running fast enough to clear the air below the valve so cavitation causes the sound.

I am confused so you get at least one vote for pictures.

NP here ya go.

+1
What size drains and what size valve?
Mine was doing that 'till I closed it down and got all the air out of it, then it was a full siphon and silent.

Bingo

Just a small thing, I would place the ball valve closer to the sump than to the display. Just my .02

Aaron

I stated the fix earlier, but I'll post pics here to clarify.

Here's probably a way to fix the problem.
This is the incorrect placement of the ball valve. This is because there is a lot of air cavitating from the valve.

Here is the correct placement of the valve. With it closer to the sump, then you get less air in the pipe when the power starts and stops.

One thing you can do if you're home during the start, is close off the ball valve completely, allow the water level in the weir to rise dangerously high, then open the ball valve 100% flushing all the air down the primary pipe, and then closing the ball valve back down to restrict the flow. Then you will have purged all the air from the line.

I don't think your plumbing has any holes in the fittings.

HTH
Aaron

 

[O3reefer]

Thanks for the help. The system does go dead silent but it takes a while and I think some help from me by adjusting the valve as you described. What you are saying is exactly whats happening. The air that gets trapped by the ball valve is making the noise. I have a feeling its do to little flow in order to match the return pump. The pump is rated for little over 500gph at current head space, but in reality it might be less. The 1.5" pipe causes me to turn the ball valve almost half closed. I think that if I redo the siphon line with a reducer fitting after the union down to 1" pipe with a ball valve more open on the 1" pipe it should act like its meant to originally. What do you think? I will take pictures in a little while so you can see what i am talking about.

Side note: How big of a hole should be drilled in the siphon drain above the water level in the sump? (hope that makes sense)

 

[CJBROWN]

Thanks for the help. The system does go dead silent but it takes a while and I think some help from me by adjusting the valve as you described. What you are saying is exactly whats happening. The air that gets trapped by the ball valve is making the noise. I have a feeling its do to little flow in order to match the return pump. The pump is rated for little over 500gph at current head space, but in reality it might be less. The 1.5" pipe causes me to turn the ball valve almost half closed. I think that if I redo the siphon line with a reducer fitting after the union down to 1" pipe with a ball valve more open on the 1" pipe it should act like its meant to originally. What do you think? I will take pictures in a little while so you can see what i am talking about.

Side note: How big of a hole should be drilled in the siphon drain above the water level in the sump? (hope that makes sense)

Until I got mine perfectly tuned it wouldn't establish a full siphon. Once I did it would do so automatically. I did not drill the outflow pipes, but the siphon one sits about an inch above the sump water level, the open channel a couple of inches under. If required, one or two 1/4 holes in your siphon line will do, just above the water level. This simply aids purging the air from the line.

I'm going to install a smaller gate valve just above the sump on my siphon line and run the upper ball vavle full open. The is will make fine tuning easier and eliminate any air pockets from the mostly closed ball valve.