Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[teesquare]

Taqpol


http://www.answers.com/topic/sanitary-tee-1

Please see the above link for a picture of a sanitary tee. Note the curved way one leg of the tee joins the other. This is to improve flow under non-pressured applications. You should be able to find them in the plumbing dept. at any Lowe's, Menard's, or Home Depot. This is not a pressure fitting. Look in the SDR (sewer, drain, and run-off) section of plumbing.
Look a the first page of the original thread that bean started all of this with. His pictures are very good.
Hope this helps!
T

 

[Taqpol]

I know what a sanitary tee is, in fact home depot did have some in ABS but I wanted to get some in PVC.

 

[teesquare]

It is a stock item at Home depot. You need to find the drainage,a nd non-pressure fittings.
These are required by code - so it just figures they will have them..................
I have never been in a store that sold PVC fittings that did not have san-tees

 

[dzhuo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14774359#post14774359 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dzhuo
what return pump you guys are using to match the drain rate assuming 1.5" PVC? thx!

Let me rephrase my question slightly, would be Ehiem 1260 be a good fit for the 1.5" drain?

 

[teesquare]

Just a thought... you can use ABS - it is sized the same as PVC SDR fittings. Being black.... well - it may actually look better than white if seen.
T

 

[teesquare]

dzhou
What is the flow,at the given static head the the Eheim will produce? Do you have a ump curve for it?

 

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14781392#post14781392 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefer2727
Decisions...Cheaper is better but I am not looking really looking to save money. Just want a good safe and quiet set up that won't need more than 1000 gph.

It just seems to me that if you are not using your vented pipe (2nd) is there any point? Will it still be quiet if that 1st pipe isnt running a full siphon??

The only pipe in beans design that is supposed to be dry, is the emergency pipe (with the upturned elbow) The system should be tuned such that there is some flow in the open channel pipe (with the vent) I remember reading an exact number of what bean's was flowing and I believe it was around 300 -400 gph. But then he is flowing probably 1500 gph or more. It has been a long time since I read the thread cover to cover. My system has been running 2500 + through the drain system. Though I have not figured out the exact number going through the open channel. It only took a minute or two once it kicked in to get it tuned. I played with it a lot. I know sometimes it seems I don't have any problems, but that just isn't true. Should have seen me installing this system on a running tank.

Regards,

Jim

 

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14781835#post14781835 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Taqpol
I know what a sanitary tee is, in fact home depot did have some in ABS but I wanted to get some in PVC.

Charlotte Pipe and Foundry makes the pvc sanitary tees, and home depot does not carry them, nor does lowes, nor ACE as far as i know. You have to look pretty hard to find some one that does. I can get them locally here, at a LFS, but the supplies are limited

Jim

 

[dzhuo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14781904#post14781904 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by teesquare
dzhou
What is the flow,at the given static head the the Eheim will produce? Do you have a ump curve for it?

Ehiem 1260: Max Pump Output: 635gph, Max Delivery Head: 12'1'', Max Power: 65W

Ehiem 1262: Max Pump Output: 900gph, Max Delivery Head: 11'6'', Max Power: 80W

The tank in question is 150g. For the 1260, I will probably have to close the primary drain 50% in order to match the return rate?

 

[Taqpol]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14781888#post14781888 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by teesquare
Just a thought... you can use ABS - it is sized the same as PVC SDR fittings. Being black.... well - it may actually look better than white if seen.
T

Does ABS bond to PVC with the standard PVC glue? I wouldn't mind trying to do the entire setup with ABS/Sch 80 PVC for the gray and black look, but I would be worried about the glues.

What about 1.5"x1" Street Elbow fittings? Those also seem like a specialty part.

 

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14782097#post14782097 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uncleof6
Charlotte Pipe and Foundry makes the pvc sanitary tees, and home depot does not carry them, nor does lowes, nor ACE as far as i know. You have to look pretty hard to find some one that does. I can get them locally here, at a LFS, but the supplies are limited

Jim

Well since everyone is banging down the doors to find pvc sanitary tees, rather than ABS, I did a 1.5 sec. search and this is the result:

http://www.pexsupply.com/controller.asp?N=200475&c

Taqpol: The answer is no. A special glue is used called "Transition Cement"

 

[Reefer2727]

Another dumb question.....

With 1.5" plumbing and a return pump that only pumps around 700 gph after headloss. Now after doing some generic research I found that:

1" hole will produce 600 gph.
1.5" hole will produce 1300 gph.

Now when I valve my primary drain (assuming at 1.5" piping) will I be able to get a full siphon going if the valve is closed 50% or more?? Will the extra space in the pipe fill with water or just make lots of noise since the valve is closed too much??

I like the idea of having space to upgrade the pump later with the 1.5" piping versus 1". I am new to this though and don't want to jump in with the huge gph. I don't think my set up will necessitate such a high flow for what I will keep. But if I cant get a full siphon going by valving the 1.5" drain im not sure this will work out well considering the vented pipe would be dry.

Any recommendations?

 

[teesquare]

You will fill the siphon pipe *IF* you place the valve to regulate the flow out of the siphon LOW... close to the sump as possible.
Leave the valve open, when the siphon starts, you can begin valving down.
T

 

[Reefer2727]

So the 1.5" piping will work on lower flow set ups? Just needs tweaking?

 

[teesquare]

Yes - as long as you let the pipe start full siphon, then crank down on the valve to slow it to a reasonable rate for the return pump you will be fine. In theory, only the volume of water that is being returned to the tank can flow out of it.
I say in theory because you must also account for the suction and weight of water in the 1-1/2" pipe as being (at least) the 1300 gph mark- and the return pump being slightly under half that amount.
So the ball valve - as low as possible on the 1-1/2" pipe works to "even things out" a bit.
But it should not be a long term adventure to tune. Again - the method allows for a great deal of "goofs" before an "oops" as you have 2 other pipes that will tell you to adjust the valve via the sound.
T

 

[Taqpol]

So it seems like I can't find 1.25"x1" Street Elbows anywhere, does someone know where I can find them?

Also, how necessary is it to have the 1.25" opening? I.e., Could I just use a normal 1" street elbow? Bean mentioned something about the large opening preventing vortexes from forming.

 

[teesquare]

You may find 1-1/2" to 1" reducer bushings ( slip x slip) at Home Depot or the local plumbing supply. Not familiar with 1-1/4" x 1".
Vortexing is a function of the speed of the water being inducted into the pipe. So if you go 1-1/2" (if you have the room) all the better. You can then valve down the flow rate, and thus slow the speed of the water entering the 90 in you overflow. Just another way to do it.
Larger diameter at the same flow rate as smaller diameter will reduce or negate vortexing
T

 

[Reefer2727]

With 1.5" bulkhead and plumbing. One drain hole at this size should have a max flow of around 1200 gph. Correct?

Now with this valved 50% or halfway would it be 600 gph or does it not work like that?

75% closed would be 300 gph?

Does anyone run these valves that closed? Probably be noisy??

 

[Reefer2727]

I guess the ultimate question is how much flow through a 1.5" does it take to accomplish a quiet valved siphon? Assuming the valve is placed as close to the sump as possible.

 

[uncleof6]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14786024#post14786024 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefer2727
I guess the ultimate question is how much flow through a 1.5" does it take to accomplish a quiet valved siphon? Assuming the valve is placed as close to the sump as possible.

At full siphon, with both ends of the pipe submerged, it will be silent. And with the full siphon, the flow rate does not determine this. It is the lack of air being introduced into the pipe that keeps it silent. On the open channel, the flow rate does determine whether it is silent.

It is the open channel drain in this system, and its function that make the distinction between this system and the "herbie" system. It is [the open channel drain, that allows the bandwidth (range of flows) in this system, and the stabilty of the water level in the overflow.

I think that the concept needs to be revisited, because it is not all that difficult to grasp, though through many iterations elsewhere, it has become clouded with too much information, and the continued association with the "herbie" method.

For clarity I have quoted BeanAnimals "Reader's Digest" version, it can be found early in the first half of the thread in response to a post by another member:

The readers digest version for melev

Siphons are silent but hard to keep balanced. Anything more than moderate flow in a typical stockman or durso standpipe is noisy.

The idea is to setup a siphon that does not handle all of the flow from the return pump. The second standpipe simply accepts that flow. The two work hand in hand to self adjust over a wide range. The outcome is silent and pretty much airless setup that is self tuning and safe.

The first standpipe is sealed and does not allow air in, that creates the siphon. The rate of the siphon is controlled by a ball valve.

The second standpipe is similar to a durso or stockman. It allows air in. It is quiet because of the very low flow.

The 3rd standpipe is for safety.

Both the second and third standpipe have features that allow them, to become siphons in the case of a backup in the overflow box.

And to answer your question as to pipe size, I.E. 1" or 1.5":

The smaller diameter pipe will mean a few things.

1) The overall siphon capacity will be slightly reduced due to increased friction in the smaller diameter pipe

2) The overall "failsafe" capcity will be sightly reduced due to increased friction in the smaller diameter pipe

3) The overall velocity of the water in the pipes will be increased for the same volume of flow. This may slightly increase the noise made by the water in the pipes.

But MOST IMPORTANTLY

4) The open channel standpipe will have a MUCH decreased capacity due to the lack of air space. As the water to air ratio in a standpipe increases, so does the noise and chance fo gurgling. The larger the diamter of the open channel standpipe, the quiter it will be.

You should be ok with 1" plumbing at the flow rate you propose. However, 1" unions (depending on brand) can be pretty darn restrictive.

You may want to consider leaving the open channel pipe 1.25" or 1.5" though.

I would also like to add, that your flow figures above are way low on what the various pipe sizes will flow at full siphon. I can add some quotes to support that, but I don't think it will be necessary.

Jim