Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[chrishet]

IMO, there is no way a siphon is going to start on its own if the water level is below the bulkhead.

 

[active]

my siphon starts when the water is above the bulk head and then drains it to about 1/2 way on the bulk head and maintains there while running. my 90 is basically 1/2 in the water and 1/2 out. i can go lower with the water level but once in a while i get a flushing noise from it being too low and sucking an air bubble.

 

[drock59]

I think the problem is the horizontal run of the pipe. It goes down five feet from the bulkhead, then runs about 7 feet horizontally, then down into the sump. This is the only thing I can figure is different from everyone else in this thread.

Can anyone help me figure out if this oveflow style is still possible with the horizontal run?


Chishet, the pump was off in that picture. Agreed, no siphon with the water leverl that low.

 

[autodave]

I think the problem is the horizontal run of the pipe. It goes down five feet from the bulkhead, then runs about 7 feet horizontally, then down into the sump. This is the only thing I can figure is different from everyone else in this thread.

Can anyone help me figure out if this oveflow style is still possible with the horizontal run?


Chishet, the pump was off in that picture. Agreed, no siphon with the water leverl that low.

Horizontal runs can cause problems, you can try putting your full siphon valve after the horizontal run,before it terminates in the sump

 

[drock59]

The valve is already after the horizontal run.

I am going to try and make the horizontal run, less horizontal.

 

[autodave]

:thumbsup:

 

[jdcook72]

I think the problem is the horizontal run of the pipe. It goes down five feet from the bulkhead, then runs about 7 feet horizontally, then down into the sump. This is the only thing I can figure is different from everyone else in this thread.

Have you put a level on the horizontal run? If your horizontal run has even a little positive grade I would think that would hinder creating the siphon since you've now got 5' of water trying to push 7' of water up hill. I would imagine once the siphon does get started everything will work fine but that might not happen automatically with the stalling while trying to coordinate/compete with the open air channel.

I think adding some negative slope to the horizontal run is a good idea.

 

[drock59]

Exactly what I am thinking. The fun part, my house is old enough to have insulation that makes you itch. :dance:

 

[BeanAnimal]

The horizontal run is cerainly causing your problems. The open channel will attempt to siphon or backup into 2-phase flow and/or the siphon will have trouble purging all of the air. Your horizontal "open channel" run needs to be large enough to remain an open channel (Pipe running half full or less) and your siphon needs to have a very shallow discharge un the sump and a decent slope to start. You may also find that the siphon is hard to keep if the pipe is too large and the flow velocity too low. This allows air to accumulate along the lengh and in some cases climb the slope and accumulate enough to break the siphon.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Ohh... and almost all houses STILL use insulation that makes you itch... fiberglass is by far the most prevelant insulation still in use.

 

[noplay180]

recall Any suggestions

recall Any suggestions

Bean I have approximately 4500 gph flowing thru my sump, and I have already drilled for 1.5 bulkheads do you think i should go upp in plumbing size from the plumbing on the outside

 

[drock59]

Thanks for the reply Bean. I'm going to get under the house(again) in the next couple of days and see how much of a contstant slope I can create. Right now it looks like giant L with the base extended. As I said previously, once I fenagel the siphon to start it runs fine. Just need to to start up when the pump stops.

The open channel is 1" flex PVC. Hope that is large enough.

 

[drock59]

Got under the house this evening and rerouted the siphon to travel downhill the entire time. Unfortunately, the siphon still will not start WITH the gate valve in the correct position, which is almost closed. Matter of fact, it is difficult to see that it is open in the picture.

If I take the gate valve off, no problem starting the siphon.

I think I over-estimated my flow rate. I have about 11 feet of pipe between the return pump and the tank. About 6 feet of that is vertical. Head loss charts say the Mag 9.5 at 10' will push 400gph. At 6 feet it will push ~700.

Some testing shows the siphon starts just fine with the gate valve open 1/2 way. It takes about 2-2.5 minutes for the siphon to full start. My logic ----> if it works with the gate valve half open, I need a bigger pump to supply enough water to run the overflow with the gate valve 1/2 open.

Thoughts?

 

[uncleof6]

Got under the house this evening and rerouted the siphon to travel downhill the entire time. Unfortunately, the siphon still will not start WITH the gate valve in the correct position, which is almost closed. Matter of fact, it is difficult to see that it is open in the picture.

If I take the gate valve off, no problem starting the siphon.

I think I over-estimated my flow rate. I have about 11 feet of pipe between the return pump and the tank. About 6 feet of that is vertical. Head loss charts say the Mag 9.5 at 10' will push 400gph. At 6 feet it will push ~700.

Some testing shows the siphon starts just fine with the gate valve open 1/2 way. It takes about 2-2.5 minutes for the siphon to full start. My logic ----> if it works with the gate valve half open, I need a bigger pump to supply enough water to run the overflow with the gate valve 1/2 open.

Thoughts?

What size return pipe? Generally, the plumbing itself adds another ~2' of vertical lift due to friction loss. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

 

[jdcook72]

What's wrong with having the gate half open if that works? I don't think it is supposed to be almost closed, it is used to regulate the siphon to almost full flow capacity so there is no flushing. The little bit of surplus is handled by the open channel.

 

[drock59]

Pump is a mag 9.5. Getting very little flow.

Jdcook- I can't run the gate valve half open or the siphon continually flushes. I HAVE to close it almost all the way to keep it from flushing. Hence the problem.

 

[BretCreager]

Hi, I have been filling my brain for about a month now trying to learn as much as I can, I am planning a125 gallon in the wall display but it will be between two rooms, I was thinking of a center island over flow. I have read a fair amount of this thread and have tried many searches and only found one person to consider this but your advice was to rethink the plans because of a basement sump.

So my question is would I have any reason to think a island overflow would not work? If I go with this should I put a false bottom in it that would allow the 4" deep over flow that you decided to go with? Also I find it difficult to find a simple to understand pro and con of how much water flow to have, I plan a mixed tank I want to have the sump set up skimmer> baffles> return <fuge. I dont understand the gph that varies so much between peoples designs, also with that I was going to have a portion of that drain directly into the fuge, are you able to split your siphon and keep air out of it?

one last question, how do you measure your gph, is it just what ever return pump you buy? If the ideal gph for me is 800 (again I dont have much concept of the gph and what it means for me so I am just throwing out a number) would having a 800 gph return pump cause this system to fail and not create a full siphon or will the rate at which it pulls water slow to match?

Sorry for the large amount of questions I'm sure this is like beating a dead horse for you after so many years, but it is a great design and would love to try it if it is the right one for me. Ps sorry if all this had been answered I think my head is about to pop with so much to learn it is easy to over look something right in front of you

 

[kwl1763]

Setting up my 180 now and have 3 1.5" bulkheads.

Have all the parts ready to go. I will have a horizontal run of ~10ft from the farthest bulkhead (~6 ft from the closest)

Bulkheads are ~70" high and my sump is ~45" high in a room adjacent (so running plumbing parallel behind tank then through wall into fish room). In reading about the issues with going horizontal, my idea is to place the full siphon overflow closest to the wall to limit the startup issues. Would it be better to have to have a 45 degree elbow close up to the bulkhead for a steeper continuous slope, or have a vertical down say 10 inches then a slight downward slope to the sump.

Thanks!

 

[don-n-sa]

Bean,

Thanks again for this set up. I have finished setting up my 150g with the beananimal drain system and it is definitley dead silent.

The first day was a challenge getting it adjusted just right, but it has been running for a week now with no issues. I was surprised on how just one little move on the gate valve made such a difference in my overflow. If the gate valve (siphon) was open just a little too much then my overflow would drain completely and the sound of the gurgling was very loud. If I closed the gate valve too much then the water level would rise and the open channel would take too much and it was also very lound...but a splashing sound.

One small problem is that it does not fully go into siphon on its own after a similated power loss. The open channel takes on too much and the air never fully purges. I have to manually open the siphon channel gate valve to get it to take more water then close it back down. It could be that I did not give it long enough but I did wait 30min on 2 different times.

Any ideas on why it does not fully purge air and go into full syphon?

I also included a pic of the drain area.

 

[don-n-sa]

Here is a short video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMaDh_AMdeU&feature=player_detailpage&list=HL1335331431