Silent and Failsafe Overflow System
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
m1k3
New member
No. The Eheim 5000 compact starts out at 1321 @ 0' of head, and drops to 0 at ~9.8' of head. The 660 - 1321 is the adjustable flow, @ 0' of head. So the curve runs from 660gph @ 0' to 0gph @ an unspecified pressure head. What the pump is actually going to flow depends on the static lift, and the friction loss. Together equal the total dynamic head, which is the number that gets applied to the flow curve, but with the output turned down, there is no flow curve. You are looking at numbers that have no validity in the real world. The only way you are going to know what the pump is doing, is to use a flow meter or weir calculations. Or, engineer the system, and select the appropriate pump for the system, instead of trying to engineer the system for the pump you rushed out and bought.
Also, when the pump and return line get gunked up, it is time to clean the pump and return line, not turn the output of the pump up. Adjusting the pump output, would not be the best husbandry for the system. Cleaning pumps, return lines, and drains, should be a regular maintenance routine. And no, you don't need to take the plumbing apart to clean it, unless you painted yourself into a corner.
Uncle, I do appreciate the fact that you share your "wisdom" on this forum. However:
1. I realize that the numbers the pump is rated for are theoretical at the output of the pump. As I stated I am shooting for around 550 GPH which should fall well within the range of the 5000. I initially purchased the 3000 as my desired flow is attainable with the pump but at the very top of its range not leaving myself much room for adjustment.
2. I had to base my estimation of flow on similar pumps, as the compact+ series is not on any of the flow calculators that I was able to find, neither was the lockline or output configuration that I am using.
3. Adjusting the pump output may not be the "best husbandry for the system" but in the event that I notice a decrease in flow and wish to crank it up till a convenient maintenance day, that option would be open for me.
4. You don't know me and emoticons don't make asinine replies any better. This why you end up in a lot of arguments.
what would cause the box to completely empty super fast after running "fine" for a min?
Im really struggling here.
I have a ball valve on the open channel and gate valve on the siphon.
I also have a ball valve on my return but my return pump is a DC pump so the valve has not had much messing with yet.
Whatever info you need to be able to give me a hand just let me know.
Out of all the info we have, i dont remember seeing anybody mention the problem.
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Im really struggling here.
I have a ball valve on the open channel and gate valve on the siphon.
I also have a ball valve on my return but my return pump is a DC pump so the valve has not had much messing with yet.
Whatever info you need to be able to give me a hand just let me know.
Out of all the info we have, i dont remember seeing anybody mention the problem.
Last edited by a moderator:
what would cause the box to completely empty super fast after running "fine" for a min?
Im really struggling here.
I have a ball valve on the open channel and gate valve on the siphon.
I also have a ball valve on my return but my return pump is a DC pump so the valve has not had much messing with yet.
Whatever info you need to be able to give me a hand just let me know.
Out of all the info we have, i dont remember seeing anybody mention the problem.
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Hi Chris,
Is the water line getting high enough to cover the 1/4" airline? This will turn the open channel to a complete siphon and flush the box.
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Yes it has, but i believe it also did it with the airline clear out of the water, i'll check that again with another run. whenever it happens, just before it dumps the box the pipes start to shake really hard and it starts getting very loud.
also no matter what i do, the open channel seems to want to run more then the siphon does. Could this be that the siphon just has not purged all the air yet?
I just cant find that "sweet spot" and get the system to re-start after a power failure.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
my 2c here
it looks like you welded the fittings into the bulkheads in the box. this is not necessary with an external box. you don't need them to be sealed 100%, just friction fit.
This means you can get rid of all of those sweep tees and threaded caps, there is air trapped in the siphon line that might be slowing it from purging. Just use a small section of pipe and a 90 out of the siphon bulkhead, then push a street 90 into it. You can remove that if you need to clean - don't bond it.
With the OC, what I use is a P-trap with a plug. They come in 1.5", not sure they come in 1". Anyways you can keep what you have for that but raise it up. Think of it as the OC controlling the operating water level of the external box. I find that the nice set point (adjust sihpon gate valve) is such that the normal (stable) operating water level in the external box is at the centerline of the inside of the OC pipe horizontal cross section. If that makes sense.
Tie the OC airline to the top of the e-pipe opening, face down. So when the water level nears the top of the e-pipe, the OC will start closing off. If the water continues to rise, the E will kick in, for a short time.
For the E-drain, you need only a straight pipe, all the other stuff you have is not really necessary.
it looks like you welded the fittings into the bulkheads in the box. this is not necessary with an external box. you don't need them to be sealed 100%, just friction fit.
This means you can get rid of all of those sweep tees and threaded caps, there is air trapped in the siphon line that might be slowing it from purging. Just use a small section of pipe and a 90 out of the siphon bulkhead, then push a street 90 into it. You can remove that if you need to clean - don't bond it.
With the OC, what I use is a P-trap with a plug. They come in 1.5", not sure they come in 1". Anyways you can keep what you have for that but raise it up. Think of it as the OC controlling the operating water level of the external box. I find that the nice set point (adjust sihpon gate valve) is such that the normal (stable) operating water level in the external box is at the centerline of the inside of the OC pipe horizontal cross section. If that makes sense.
Tie the OC airline to the top of the e-pipe opening, face down. So when the water level nears the top of the e-pipe, the OC will start closing off. If the water continues to rise, the E will kick in, for a short time.
For the E-drain, you need only a straight pipe, all the other stuff you have is not really necessary.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Here are the p-traps I was talking about. No airline needed, just remove the cap, or at least remove the gasket and maybe drill a hole in the cap, set that so that the water level is just below the e drain when it covers the cap/hole
woodnaquanut
Active member
If it empties real fast it must be a siphon. Which line is that happening in?
Edit: Looking at the pics, it looks like the open channel airline is too low.
I see no reason to have valves on any line but the siphon.
The way I tuned my system:
Start with siphon line valve wide open. When the system starts up there will be a short section of instability. After the siphon starts the OF box should empty, break siphon and start over again and again.
At this point start shutting down the siphon valve. As you do this the level in the OF box will rise. At some point water should just start going down the open channel. The open channel's airline should NOT be touching any water, keeping the OC open.
Let it run for a few minutes. The level in the OF box should be stable. If it goes up, open the valve a very small amount. If the level goes down, close the valve a very small amount.
Once you get it stable, let it run for a few more minutes to make sure it's really stable. Now let's test for power failure restart. Shut off return pump, let it finish draining - mine takes almost 5 minutes - then turn on return pump. Observe what happens and report back!
The siphon should 'burp' a few times as it flushes out the trapped air. There might be flow in the open and emergency lines. As long as it doesn't flood, it should stabilize after a few minutes.
woodnaquanut
Active member
Floyd, are you referring to Chris Q's post? If so I completely agree with you.
Lots of the plumbing on BA original post is there because it's all external to the tank. It needed to be sealed because it was all in air. With Chris's setup all the plumbing is under water and doesn't need to be sealed. Mine isn't and has been running great for the last 18 months.
Thank you guys so much for the input its helping already, i wish i would have known about the tee's in the external box not needing to be sealed to the bulkheads, good thing i have a set of 3 threaded ones sitting here waiting for me to screw up ;p
One of the major problems im running into is my return pump compartment runs dry far before the system can reach any kind of stability. Return pump is a Jebao DC-12000 on the lowest setting
im going to go try again with what you just suggested
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Yes...glad you agree. I think that additional plumbing is the cause of the problem. If the system isn't really high flow, then the water going through the siphon line is not going to be turbulent enough to churn all that air up and suck it out. So the result is that you have an airlock type of situation, and in order to resolve that the water level has to rise higher relative to the air bubble and compress it to get more water to flow. The more water flows, the more the bubble is purged, the more water flows, and the effect cascades until all the air is vacuumed out of the siphon line.
The other problem I see is that the OC is very close to the level of the siphon line, when looking at the horizontal cross-section of the pipe for both of these relative to each other. You don't need these to be close, you don't want these to be close. You want the siphon line in the bottom of the box, as low as it can go because it doesn't control the the operating water level of the box. The OC does. So IMO the horizontal center of the OC must be no lower than the top of the siphon elbow in order to work right. If you have the space, higher.
I made this, if this helps visually explain what I'm trying to describe
woodnaquanut
Active member
So does that mean you don't have enough sump capacity to hold draindown? Are the pics of the sump when the system is running or off?
I'm confused about the location of the three drains in the sump. Are they all in the same sump section?
Or is the return section of the sump too small?
Any way you could do a video of the sump as the system starts up? Of the OF box?
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
So in the above pic, the bottom line is the minimum level for the OC to operate. The next line up would be a good set point, just a trickle through it. But anywhere below the bottom line and the intake of the siphon would be an operational area as well. In this area, the siphon would be nearly perfectly tuned, and the only thing affecting the rate of flow is the water level in the external box, so it will vary up and down.
I have one tank running and when something gets into the impeller of the reeflo pump (detritus, tube worms, etc) and slows the flow down just a bit, the level drops. I go in there sometimes and the water is 2" below the OC operating level, just hovering there. I crack the siphon valve a teeny bit closed and the water level creeps up at about 1/4" per minute, and then balances out again with zero OC flow. Leave it for a week and it stays right there. The point is that your goal is not to intentionally force flow through the OC. It's purpose is to allow for a wide range of self-adjustment. Really wide range.
I have one tank running and when something gets into the impeller of the reeflo pump (detritus, tube worms, etc) and slows the flow down just a bit, the level drops. I go in there sometimes and the water is 2" below the OC operating level, just hovering there. I crack the siphon valve a teeny bit closed and the water level creeps up at about 1/4" per minute, and then balances out again with zero OC flow. Leave it for a week and it stays right there. The point is that your goal is not to intentionally force flow through the OC. It's purpose is to allow for a wide range of self-adjustment. Really wide range.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Yeah something is not right there. The system I was referencing in my last post is a 144 with a custom 30g sump. when the system is off, the sump holds about 20g. When it's running, at 3000GPH actual flow, the sump capacity is about 12-15 gallons.
I could, problem is, is there is no consistency. It seems like a different result each time, this last time it wouldnt fully purge the box now during a power failure
It's starting to look like i need to start over, maybe take a new 40b i got sitting here and make a more appropriate sump for this setup if needed.
Another thought is i realized my drains are 3.5'' into the water, could this be causing this many problems?
Also, if i had to start over do you guys see a problem with using thread/thread bulkheads? If so can someone help me with a shopping list?
The 1st and 2nd time i asked for this particular help i was chastised for not reading 8k posts.
Thanks again guys for all your help and wisdom
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Yes. I terminate mine no more than 1" below. 3.5" is preventing the siphon from purging air, especially at low flow.
You could just drill a 1/8" hole in the siphon pipe - I think it should be right above the water line but I can't recall for sure. I think Bean mentions this early on in the thread, maybe in the OP.
Use thread x slip. Slip on the flange side. Use TFE paste and a thread/slip PVC adapter and solvent weld your drain plumbing to that. Also I welded in a union on each line below the bulkhead. This is mainly so that you aren't screwed if you weld in one of those 45s just a bit wrong - you just turn the union.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Pics from the initial setup of one system, 3+ yrs ago. Wow it's been that long. I haven't even cleaned the pump out since then.
Good tips, i'm interested in drilling the hole.
I picked up Rectorseal T plus 2 last night at Lowes for this job, is this stuff ok?
It says for use with potable water so i figured it was ok.
Thats a bummer about the bulkheads though being i already have 3 thread x thread sitting here.
I picked up Rectorseal T plus 2 last night at Lowes for this job, is this stuff ok?
It says for use with potable water so i figured it was ok.
Thats a bummer about the bulkheads though being i already have 3 thread x thread sitting here.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
you can use t x t BHs no problem.
You would just need to use a t/s adapter on the flange side first for each, then use friction fit slip fittings. That way if you need to do maintenance, you can pull the fitting out. you would not want to use something like a threaded elbow unless you have room in your ext box to make a full turn of the fitting without needing to remove the BH.
Also turning a threaded fitting into a bulkhead can cause the BH to turn, loosen the nut, you lose your seal...
You would just need to use a t/s adapter on the flange side first for each, then use friction fit slip fittings. That way if you need to do maintenance, you can pull the fitting out. you would not want to use something like a threaded elbow unless you have room in your ext box to make a full turn of the fitting without needing to remove the BH.
Also turning a threaded fitting into a bulkhead can cause the BH to turn, loosen the nut, you lose your seal...
Thanks for confirming that Floyd
Thats actually how i first started but i thought it would make everything too high and not work.
Looking at the pics do you think i can fit the p-traps in there? One hole is kinda offset from the other 2
The bulkheads are 1.5''
The inside of the box is 27.25''
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