Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

Floyd R Turbo · Nov 3, 2016

You brought my diagram to life!!

BA%20External%20Overflow%20Cross%20Section.jpg

Elricsfate · Nov 3, 2016

Thank you all for your kind assistance. The reason for the questions is that I actually ordered the 20 in Synergy overflow, which does not come with the U flow connectors. I intended to copy the Shadow's setup in the 20 in, and needed to understand how it should be done.

I truly appreciate your help. This is what makes this hobby great! Hopefully somewhere down the road I'll be one of the "old salts" handing out advice and answering questions.

saf1 · Nov 5, 2016

Didn't think about this until today but quick question (more than likely a dumb one).

On a peninsula style build with the Bean Animal overflow on the side what does that do to water movement by wave makers, return, or other flow devices in the tank? Or maybe it doesn't matter and only affects the surface layer?

My return bulkhead entry point is on the overflow so I was thinking it would push / return against the incoming flow and might cause issues. Which then lead me on my conundrum has to what would be ideal and placement

I'm thinking the surface is the only thing impacted and what happens lower doesn't matter and will see the effects of wave patterns if present.

uncleof6 · Nov 5, 2016

saf1 said:
Didn't think about this until today but quick question (more than likely a dumb one).

On a peninsula style build with the Bean Animal overflow on the side what does that do to water movement by wave makers, return, or other flow devices in the tank? Or maybe it doesn't matter and only affects the surface layer?

My return bulkhead entry point is on the overflow so I was thinking it would push / return against the incoming flow and might cause issues. Which then lead me on my conundrum has to what would be ideal and placement I'm thinking the surface is the only thing impacted and what happens lower doesn't matter and will see the effects of wave patterns if present.

Well, technically you are correct. However, if the return flow is angled down and away from the overflow end it should be alright. The biggest problem is pulling water the length of the tank. (rather than the width as it would in a more "traditional" setup.) As far as under the surface, that matters too. You need to bring water up from the bottom to the top, out the overflow, then back into the tank towards the bottom (not really) to force water up to the surface. This is what powerheads are for, to create a well mixed circular flow pattern.

saf1 · Nov 5, 2016

uncleof6 said:
Well, technically you are correct. However, if the return flow is angled down and away from the overflow end it should be alright. The biggest problem is pulling water the length of the tank. (rather than the width as it would in a more "traditional" setup.) As far as under the surface, that matters too. You need to bring water up from the bottom to the top, out the overflow, then back into the tank towards the bottom (not really) to force water up to the surface. This is what powerheads are for, to create a well mixed circular flow pattern.

The original design was going to use the full width and back tank but then we thought maybe we would notch the and have it visible from the other side. I'm not sure if I want to do that now but the option is there I guess.

Thank you for the information. I'll have to double check once it arrives to see if I can plumb it properly has you describe. I believe I can. If not I'm sure there are other options. I don't think I need an crazy abundance of flow though because I mainly keep soft and LPS corals. There may be one or two for a reef crest of SPS such as a birds nest or something similar. But your note on bringing up water from the bottom is what I need to make sure of.

Thanks again. Have a good day.

uncleof6 · Nov 5, 2016

Interesting. I started working with this system in early 2008; and through 2009 - 2010, I went through a process of converting ~250 running systems to the Bean Animal style drain system. These conversions were done/attempted in place with the existing overflows/boxes. The configurations were internal, as well as internal/external (aka Glass-holes style.) Some systems required more extensive modification, in order to get the Bean Animal system to function properly, as maintaining the basic relationships between the three drain lines was not possible.

The results of "our work" over the years (myself and the actual designer of the system: Bean Animal) has shown that the only time there is a problem with the system, is if the implementer modifies the system to the point that the basic relationships between the three drain lines are altered, and the system does not properly start.

If the main "siphon" or "primary" airlocks, it is due to the open channel taking to much flow, too soon; and often because the open channel trips to "siphon mode" before the "siphon" purges all the air (the secondary cause is the drain outlets being too deep in the sump.) This is 99.99 % an implementation error. Put simply, the head height is insufficient to purge the air out of the siphon line, because the criteria is a "small package" rather than good sound functional design.

Modifications to Bean's system, can be accomplished. However, if the basic relationships are altered, the system will not function the way it is supposed to. If the relationships are maintained, the system has no issues starting. It is repetitive, 100% of the time. If a hole in the siphon is needed to keep it from air locking, it is an implementation flaw.

It really does not matter what it is called, it is based on the design and operating principles of Bean's system, and it is subject to the same constraints in terms of modifications from Bean's original design.

uncleof6 · Nov 5, 2016

Synergy Reef said:
hahaha. I brought it to life a long time ago.

Interesting. I do have a question however: what gave you the idea to put three drain standpipes, of any configuration, in an external overflow that you "brought to life a long time ago?" E.G. where did you get the idea for the "œGhost Overflow," or where did Synergy get it, back in 2011?

I have a couple other questions concerning the design criteria, (small weirs with teeth vs more efficient longer flat weirs, for one) however this thread is about Bean Animal's design, nor Reef Savvy or Synergy modifications of that design.

"Overflow: Top Secret Reef Savvy overflow build by Synergy Reef Systems. More details will be released at MACNA 2013." (I did not wish to post a link to another forum)
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jason2459 · Nov 5, 2016

Floyd R Turbo said:
You brought my diagram to life!!

That's how I've had my overflow setup since 2011.

Working like a champ. Full siphon can't really see under the water up top. Middle emergency. Bottom open channel.

Thak you again and again BeanAnimal![/QUOTE]

BeanAnimal · Nov 7, 2016

Floyd R Turbo said:
I stand corrected, after a bunch of testing apparently the hole in the siphon line solves some issues with airlocking on startup on certain plumbing configs and doesn't cause any functionality issues.

But for a DIYer recommendation, I wouldn't go there yet

Floyd,

As I mentioned in the post above, several of us fiddled around with this, even inn the "herbie" debates. There are a few gotchas if you drill the top of the siphon u-tube.

The benefit is prevention of air-lock - But as you know there is no airlock issue with a properly configured standpipe (with out without a relief hole at sump level).

Gotcha #1: Quite simply, the hole needs to be kept clean. One more thing to maintain in a "set and forget" setup.

Gotcha #2: In the context of "one size fits all" the hole can create a vortex that draws air into the standpipe, generating unwanted bubbles and disrupting the rate of siphon.

Clearly these issues are system dependent but their presence presents a departure from the original design goals.

BrianD · Nov 7, 2016

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Floyd R Turbo · Nov 7, 2016

BeanAnimal said:
Gotcha #1: Quite simply, the hole needs to be kept clean. One more thing to maintain in a "set and forget" setup.

Gotcha #2: In the context of "one size fits all" the hole can create a vortex that draws air into the standpipe, generating unwanted bubbles and disrupting the rate of siphon.

I'm with you on both of these, for the DIYer, setting up the standpipes properly from the get-go should mean that you don't have a need for the siphon line hole, and therefore having it when you don't need it could definitely cause issues, as you describe.

So that could be easily patched over with epoxy putty in the case where you plumbed it right

As for the hole on the OC line, admittedly I haven't set one up with this configuration myself, but I've built boxes and supplied parts to people who have, the one I used was a 2-part P trap I bought at the local BBS with a little cap on the bottom of the U section that you could unscrew a bit so that when it was covered up it would kick over, worked pretty well I thought (at least I was told it did)

So I said earlier (last week) that you shouldn't ever have a hole in the siphon line, and ideally this is still the case. So I guess my recommendation would be to plumb it right (i.e. read this thread) and then occlude the siphon line hole. As for the OC hole vs JG fitting + airline, the latter is probably the best way to do it, but the former IMO also can work very well - the OC hole, when in balanced operation, will be above the water line, so aside from salt creep, it should stay clear.

BeanAnimal · Nov 12, 2016

Correct, staying above the water line prevents it from getting covered up and makes it adjustable as well as prevents it from acting like a small amplifier for the water running down the OC.

The takeaway (as always) is that there are plenty of valid (safe and efficient) methods to drain water from an aquarium. There are plenty of changes or modifications that can be made to this (or any system) to enhance performance or simplify the design without sacrificing function. The goal here was to present a design that could be easily implemented and work on almost any system without changes or the need for trial and error.

The fact that almost every issue solved in this thread is solved by applying the basic design principles to a system that did not adhere to them in the first place is a fitting testament to the design.

Thanks (as always) to those if you who have devoted so much time to helping others understand this system and the design philosophy.

saf1 · Nov 13, 2016

May have been asked a milling times in this thread already but is there a reasonable or recommended adjustable ball valve.

I must say I was a bit taken aback when I saw the variance of pricing. Figured maybe there is a go-to manufacture or brand that is durable for reefkeeping. Hoping to get plumbing a bit more solid this go around with no salt creep around bulk heads and fittings.

SGT_York · Nov 14, 2016

Any ball valve will work, but gate valves are just better for siphon lines, with a ball valve you cannot expect to get the siphon flow rate perfect as they are just too difficult to adjust, which could result in infrequent siphoning of the OC pipe, or a higher/ lower flow through the OC than could be accomplished with a gate.

IMO a gate valve is worth the extra few dollars.

Nick James · Dec 12, 2016

Hi,

I am setting up a 220g display. I have yet to drill for my bean animal overflow and I am glad I didn't because I may have come across a better way of doing it. My DT will be in one room, approximately 6 inches from the wall. The sump, everything else will be in the room behind. I originally was trying to determine the best placement of the holes, that would allow ease of access. This would have meant placement on one end of the tank or the other.

That is, until I saw this photo:

My question is, are there drawbacks/ dangers of having the pipe go straight back through the wall for approximately 12" prior to the drop?

The drains will all be 1.5". Thanks in advance

Nick James · Dec 18, 2016

BeanAnimal said:
.

uncleof6 said:
.

Just trying to get your attention for my question in the previous post..

JACOXVIII · Jan 3, 2017

Ok I know you can not mod a B.A but this is what I'm working with. I have a 300 DD with the corner over flows cut out. I made a CtoC straight weir it had to be made in 2 pieces. It has a 1" bulk head to equals the 2 sides ( Might try and cut a second hole). My first plan was to run on the left side 1 full siphon and 1 emergence. On the right side run 1 full siphon and 1 open channel standpipe.
These unfortunately are all 1" plumbing. the sump is directly below/ behind the DT. I could 3 full siphons and 1 emergency modded Herbie. I know this is not optimal but I want it to be better then a stock 300dd. My CtoC is only 3.5" deep so re-drilling the back of the tank for a 1.5" B.A. might not work and is a last resort.

Steveb · Jan 3, 2017

Nick James said:
Hi,

I am setting up a 220g display. I have yet to drill for my bean animal overflow and I am glad I didn't because I may have come across a better way of doing it. My DT will be in one room, approximately 6 inches from the wall. The sump, everything else will be in the room behind. I originally was trying to determine the best placement of the holes, that would allow ease of access. This would have meant placement on one end of the tank or the other.

That is, until I saw this photo:

My question is, are there drawbacks/ dangers of having the pipe go straight back through the wall for approximately 12" prior to the drop?

The drains will all be 1.5". Thanks in advance

that setup belonged to d2mini you can PM him.. I am not sure how long his horizontal run was...

vhuang168 · Jan 10, 2017

Starting to plumb a 190g DT.

Bulkhead sizes in the overflow are 1".

My sump came with 1.5" bulkheads.

I'm currently planning on doing 1.25" piping on all the drain lines.

Is there a potential problem with that?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

GQsmooth · Jan 11, 2017

Elricsfate said:
Thank you all for your kind assistance. The reason for the questions is that I actually ordered the 20 in Synergy overflow, which does not come with the U flow connectors. I intended to copy the Shadow's setup in the 20 in, and needed to understand how it should be done.

I truly appreciate your help. This is what makes this hobby great! Hopefully somewhere down the road I'll be one of the "old salts" handing out advice and answering questions.

How did yours turnout? Have any pics? I just received my 20" overflow.

Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

Floyd R Turbo

Either busy or sleeping

Elricsfate

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saf1

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uncleof6

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saf1

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uncleof6

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uncleof6

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jason2459

Well-known member

BeanAnimal

BrianD

Sir Brian The Lenient

Floyd R Turbo

Either busy or sleeping

BeanAnimal

saf1

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SGT_York

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Nick James

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Nick James

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JACOXVIII

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Steveb

vhuang168

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GQsmooth

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