Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[robojet]

Hmmm... OK. I wasn't trying to design my entire sump here, I was just hoping someone could tell me if the flow rate from the open channel was enough to feed a refugium.

That's OK... I'll figure it out.

robojet, I am thinking we hijacked this thread enough, and perhaps a discussion of sump design would go better in another sump design thread, or just make a new thread for it.

Regards,

Jim

 

[uncleof6]

Hmmm... OK. I wasn't trying to design my entire sump here, I was just hoping someone could tell me if the flow rate from the open channel was enough to feed a refugium.

That's OK... I'll figure it out.

Looking at the overall flow rate for your system, I am thinking that the flow through the open channel is going to be very low, just a wild guess < 50 gph, as the bulk of the flow should be through the siphon. I would have a tendency to say the is not sufficient for the fuge. Beyond that, both the siphon and open channel should be in the skimmer section.

Jim

 

[robojet]

Got it... and thanks so much. I think I have the overflow design complete. Next posts will probably be after I order and receive the tank.

Thanks for the help!

Looking at the overall flow rate for your system, I am thinking that the flow through the open channel is going to be very low, just a wild guess < 50 gph, as the bulk of the flow should be through the siphon. I would have a tendency to say the is not sufficient for the fuge. Beyond that, both the siphon and open channel should be in the skimmer section.

Jim

 

[HOBrien]

What is the best way to do an overflow if I am unsure if the back glass is tempered or not. The tank is 10yrs old or more. Its an old DAS tank that has the filtration box inside of it. The reason I am asking is that I will be limited to the space available behind the tank when I move it into its new spot. The allowable space is 2" from tank to wall.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. It is currently using a HOB overflow.

This is a 200gallon tank.

 

[HOBrien]

Anyone with any advice?

 

[BeanAnimal]

What is the best way to do an overflow if I am unsure if the back glass is tempered or not. The tank is 10yrs old or more. Its an old DAS tank that has the filtration box inside of it. The reason I am asking is that I will be limited to the space available behind the tank when I move it into its new spot. The allowable space is 2" from tank to wall.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. It is currently using a HOB overflow.

This is a 200gallon tank.

Use one or more of the various methods (polarized lenses, scratch test, etc) to reasonably determine of the tank is tempered or not and choose to drill based on what you determine as a reasonable risk.

-or-

Stick with the HOB if you find that the tank is tempered or the risk of losing the tank is not acceptable.

2" clearance behind the tank does not leave you much room to work with at all. I would check and see of the bottom is tempered and if not, drill it and use an internal overflow box.

 

[HOBrien]

I know the bottom is tempered and unsure of the back. It was previously painted black either by the manufacture or the previous owner. I might not take the risk and just build a HOB one.

 

[sean04]

BeanAnimal,

I am ready to setup my first reef tank and will be using your design. I have a few questions that I believe have been answered but I just couldn't find them through the numerous pages.

1. I have a 55 gallon with a 40 gallon sump. I am planning on adding an external overflow with an internal wier so my 1" bulkheads will be coming from the bottom of my overflow. I am planning to use 3/4" piping for the siphon, 1" for the open channel, and 3/4" or 1" for the emergency (not sure which one maybe you can advise me on the emergency size as well). Do you think this setup will work for my setup or maybe a better question is how much flow do you think I can have with this setup?

2. For my street elbows inside the overflow, I couldn't find the 1"slip x 1.25" slip but I found the 1" spigot x 1" slip elbow. Will this work or will I be taking the risk of creating a vortex?

3. For my external overflow box how much depth and height do I need for the 1" bulkheads and the piping? The width will be almost the entire width of the tank? I would prefer to keep the depth a minimum. (Just to clarify width = entire length of back wall of tank and depth = bottom piece of external overflow)

Thanks!

 

[uncleof6]

BeanAnimal,

I am ready to setup my first reef tank and will be using your design. I have a few questions that I believe have been answered but I just couldn't find them through the numerous pages.

1. I have a 55 gallon with a 40 gallon sump. I am planning on adding an external overflow with an internal wier so my 1" bulkheads will be coming from the bottom of my overflow. I am planning to use 3/4" piping for the siphon, 1" for the open channel, and 3/4" or 1" for the emergency (not sure which one maybe you can advise me on the emergency size as well). Do you think this setup will work for my setup or maybe a better question is how much flow do you think I can have with this setup?

2. For my street elbows inside the overflow, I couldn't find the 1"slip x 1.25" slip but I found the 1" spigot x 1" slip elbow. Will this work or will I be taking the risk of creating a vortex?

3. For my external overflow box how much depth and height do I need for the 1" bulkheads and the piping? The width will be almost the entire width of the tank? I would prefer to keep the depth a minimum. (Just to clarify width = entire length of back wall of tank and depth = bottom piece of external overflow)

Thanks!

1) I would not waste the time with 3/4" pipe. Do 1" siphon and emergency, and 1.25" open channel.

2) 1" elbow of any type will work just fine. You make the box high enough so the water level is about at the horizontal center line of the elbows. With the inlet around an 1" or maybe a little less up off the floor of the external box.

3) "Length" of the overflow: Just about the entire length of the tank. (The long dimension) "Width" of the overflow describes the front to back dimension. "Height" describes the top to bottom dimension. If we all get on the same page, it helps keep things in order. "Depth" is ambiguous.

Tanks are described by Length x Width x Height.


Regards,

Jim

 

[sean04]

Jim,

Thanks for the feedback and for clearing up the dimensions for #3. I knew when I posted that there must be a better way.

So what would be a good width for the external overflow box?

 

[chasekwe]

Hey guys I'm considering building my own external overflow onto the back of an 18" long tank and using BeanAnimal's design if I can fit it. Couple questions if you please...

First off, 12-14" in length is what I'm looking at. I want about 250-300gph MAX running through the system and I also need to fit the hole and plumbing for the return. I intended to use 3/4" bulkheads and am curious about the sizing conversion for doing so. I assume I just use 3/4" everywhere Bean has 1" on his plan and 1" everywhere he uses 1.5"? Also, how deep would you cut the weir?

Also, I'll be using a 2 entry point sump where water must drain into the skimmer compartment and refugium compartment separately before meeting in the return compartment. If I have the full siphon standpipe drain into the skimmer section and open channel standpipe into the refugium (where I'd like less flow anyways) will this provide consistent flow to both compartments?


I think that's all, thanks!

Oh, has anyone made one of those parts breakdowns for other sizes such as my 3/4" bulkheads? I'd really like to reduce thinking on this project to a minimum.

 

[reefermad619]

Hi everyone. First time posting on here. I've taken the time and read the WHOLE thread. I've seen all my questions answered, except one. How much room are these systems taking up in the back of the tank? I plan on running and internal overflow, but space is a big issue. I have about 5 inches of wiggle room behind my tank. If it comes out any further, it will be in the way of my hallway entry. I'm building an 80 gallon standard glass tank, so 48"x 18"x 23". I plan on running about 500 gph after the head loss. I KNOW that 1" will be fine for this. Again, I've read the WHOLE thread. I know that jb61264 runs all one 1" and has more that twice the flow I will and his set-up is silent. But how much room does his set-up take? For that matter how much room will it take for all 1", 1.25" (smallest I can find sani-tees), and 1.5"? I plan on running true union valves under the tank and close to the sump, so I can save space behind the tank. I've also cut down the back of my bulkheads, so they extend an inch past the tank. Thanks to all the experienced people on here for their input, knowledge, and patience. Also, I live in San Diego, CA. Anyone running one of these set-ups locally? If so, can I check it out? Thanks.
-Tony

 

[navy crf]

I am looking to incorporate this system into my 75 gallon tank and have some of the parts with the rest on order. Decided to go with the 1.5 inch piping. I only have a 20 long that I am building into a sump(getting 1/4 inch glass baffles cut tomorrow). My question is, will the size/flow through the sump with the 1.5 inch piping blow away the small sump or should it be alright? Do the valves need to be wide open or could I close them partially to slow up the flow?

 

[chasekwe]

I am looking to incorporate this system into my 75 gallon tank and have some of the parts with the rest on order. Decided to go with the 1.5 inch piping. I only have a 20 long that I am building into a sump(getting 1/4 inch glass baffles cut tomorrow). My question is, will the size/flow through the sump with the 1.5 inch piping blow away the small sump or should it be alright? Do the valves need to be wide open or could I close them partially to slow up the flow?

I've been trying to read through this thread a bit navy. I'd still wait for expert advice but I get the impression you close the valves on the siphon tube more and more to reduce flow in order to handle lower GPH. Myself for example, I only want 300gph MAX through my sump, that is also all my return pump will provide at my head pressure. I'm building my setup with 3/4" but I think if I wanted to build it with 1" or larger I still could... it would just necessitate adjusting the valve more towards closed.

Disclaimer: I could be absolutely and completely wrong.

 

[Daimyo68]

Hi everyone. First time posting on here. I've taken the time and read the WHOLE thread. I've seen all my questions answered, except one. How much room are these systems taking up in the back of the tank? I plan on running and internal overflow, but space is a big issue. I have about 5 inches of wiggle room behind my tank. If it comes out any further, it will be in the way of my hallway entry. I'm building an 80 gallon standard glass tank, so 48"x 18"x 23". I plan on running about 500 gph after the head loss. I KNOW that 1" will be fine for this. Again, I've read the WHOLE thread. I know that jb61264 runs all one 1" and has more that twice the flow I will and his set-up is silent. But how much room does his set-up take? For that matter how much room will it take for all 1", 1.25" (smallest I can find sani-tees), and 1.5"? I plan on running true union valves under the tank and close to the sump, so I can save space behind the tank. I've also cut down the back of my bulkheads, so they extend an inch past the tank. Thanks to all the experienced people on here for their input, knowledge, and patience. Also, I live in San Diego, CA. Anyone running one of these set-ups locally? If so, can I check it out? Thanks.
-Tony

I've got my 70g setup as shown in the "parts" image here in the thread somewhere, using 1.5" pipe.

The part that sticks out the furthest is the 1.5" true union ball valve. The end of the screw down collar on the union is 6 3/4" out from the back glass of the tank. So realistically, your talking 7", which leaves room to "twist" the unions apart if needed.

 

[uncleof6]

Hi everyone. First time posting on here. I've taken the time and read the WHOLE thread. I've seen all my questions answered, except one. How much room are these systems taking up in the back of the tank? I plan on running and internal overflow, but space is a big issue. I have about 5 inches of wiggle room behind my tank. If it comes out any further, it will be in the way of my hallway entry. I'm building an 80 gallon standard glass tank, so 48"x 18"x 23". I plan on running about 500 gph after the head loss. I KNOW that 1" will be fine for this. Again, I've read the WHOLE thread. I know that jb61264 runs all one 1" and has more that twice the flow I will and his set-up is silent. But how much room does his set-up take? For that matter how much room will it take for all 1", 1.25" (smallest I can find sani-tees), and 1.5"? I plan on running true union valves under the tank and close to the sump, so I can save space behind the tank. I've also cut down the back of my bulkheads, so they extend an inch past the tank. Thanks to all the experienced people on here for their input, knowledge, and patience. Also, I live in San Diego, CA. Anyone running one of these set-ups locally? If so, can I check it out? Thanks.
-Tony

The 1.5" sanitary tees stick out ~3.75" from the bulkhead if you butt it up tight. The only variable is how short you cut the bulkhead.

Jim

 

[madkeenreefer]

great metaphor

great metaphor

Let me see if I can clarify for those who are still confused...

Think of a hydroelectric dam. The dam has a fixed water height (HEAD) against it. There are passages through the core of the dam that allow a fixes amount of water to flow to the electric turbines. However, the lake (resevoir) behind the damn is constantly being replinished by the streams rivers and runoff that flow into the backwaters feeding the lake. If the water filling the lake does not equal or exceede the amount of water flowing through the turnbines, then the water level in the lake drops and the turbines run dry. On the other hand of more water flows into the lake than the turbines can handle then the damn will overlfow. How do we keep the dam from overflowing? We create a spillway to allow the excess water to find its way downstream past the dam. Many dams also have a dry emergency spillway that is designed to handle catastrophic flood waters that are unexpected. You have heard the term "open the flood gates"... The "flood gates" allow water to be dumped to the emergency spillway in the event the dam is subjected to dangerous head heights.

You can compare this setup to the dam. We have a siphon standpipe that is always submerged (like the turbine intakes) and we have an open channel (like the dam's spillway). We also have an emergency standpipe (like the dam's emergency spillway or flood gate system).

Hope that helps a bit.

BeanAnimal this is a great metaphor for thoes new to the system, it realy gives a clear picture of each individual pipes roll .
you should past it to the top of the tread...

 

[merkurmaniac]

I'd like to ask about the overflow that I will be building. The tank will be a 34 gallon hex. I am going to install it into an art niche in the wall, and have the overflow come out the back of the tank. I currently have a 29 rectangular with a regular over the back siphon box and it sounds like a running toilet. That's what attracted me to this thread. I have probably read 3/4 of it, which is quite a feat, I'd say. Here are my specs:

34 gallon hex with a 10 gallon sump below. Danner Mag-5 pump, which will only put out about 250 gph with 5 feet of lift. It has a 3/4 flex hose discharge, so I cannot see using super huge lines for the returns.

I have bought three 1" dia bulkheads that I am planning to use. I will build an internal overflow that will go as wide across the back as possible. Since its one side of a hex, if I have trouble getting it all in the box, I was considering moving the emergency overflow pipe to a location outside the box. I picked up some scrap acrylic to practice drilling, routing, and gluing. I have some black and clear material, I was thinking black for the front, and clear for the bottom of the box.

Now, my questions/assumptions:

1. I realize that sanitary tees are not available in my area in less than 1.5" NPS. I was thinking more along the lines of 1" NPS for my three lines, which should be much more flow than I need. In fact, I might prefer to use 3/4" so that the piping could route down inside the wall better. I would suppose that the 3/4" siphon would probably be adequate, but that you like a larger size for the open channel pipe, and that you feel it looks better if they are all the same dia. With this in mind, I am thinking I'll use 1" for all of it.

So... I checked out the sanitary tees at Lowes and they have some quite rough interiors and it seems that back to back 45's would be a much smoother transition than a straight tee for sure, but then I'd not have a Tee that I could rod out to clean it. Do they ever really need to be cleaned ? If I have a union below, I should be able to pass a wire or bottle brush up from the bottom I'd think too, so how about just having two back to back 45°ells for each of the three branches ?

Another question: what starts the siphon action on the siphon channel?

Design parameters that I have gleaned from earlier posts.

open channel centerline about 1" below the level of the wier ?

siphon hole drilled 1/2" lower than the open channel bulkhead hole ?

bottom of internal overflow box should be set at 1/2" below face of siphon channel ?

Front to back dimension for box should accomodate hands.

I am trying to finalize my dimensions so that I can drill the tank and build the overflow during my Christmas break.

TIA for this so very helpful thread,
Richard

 

[jb61264]

You just gave me a project to do for the weekend I like this idea...have been using eggcrate and it works ok, but this sounds like a better idea...trying to figure out what to use for the rubber stops though

I added a piece of glass cut to the exact dimension of the top of my overflow (36" x 4")...corners are sanded down so they are not sharp...painted side that faces up with Krylon Fusion black spray paint and found the clear "bumpers" used for cabinents, etc...put those in the corners of the "lid" piece of glass and it works PERFECT...water flows through perfectly and there is no way for fish to get in anymore as its too thin

A "required" must-add feature to this DIY project in my opinion

 

[reefermad619]

I added a piece of glass cut to the exact dimension of the top of my overflow (36" x 4")...corners are sanded down so they are not sharp...painted side that faces up with Krylon Fusion black spray paint and found the clear "bumpers" used for cabinents, etc...put those in the corners of the "lid" piece of glass and it works PERFECT...water flows through perfectly and there is no way for fish to get in anymore as its too thin

A "required" must-add feature to this DIY project in my opinion

How much room do your pipes take up in the back of your tank?