Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[TheFishMan65]

I see several choices.

One drill your whole through the black trim. I don't recommend unless you know the trim is not structural.

Other wise you need to have a tall box, with the sides in from the side bracing. Make sure it is deep enough you can get into with the top bracing.

I think I would do everything external. You you will still need a tall box, but only deep enough to get your hand in for cleaning. Glue a box on the back and build your Bean there.

 

[SkyFire]

I see several choices.

One drill your whole through the black trim. I don't recommend unless you know the trim is not structural.

Other wise you need to have a tall box, with the sides in from the side bracing. Make sure it is deep enough you can get into with the top bracing.

I think I would do everything external. You you will still need a tall box, but only deep enough to get your hand in for cleaning. Glue a box on the back and build your Bean there.

I read more and reread some and think that may be my best option drill 3-4 1" bulkhead hole in the back and do a tall external box.....what would I keep the water level in the box at?....it'd need to be below the black glass or I'd have to seal the black glass (and I do think it may be structural given that the long glass bracings are only 1"wide, otherwise I'd try a slit in it at several places going to the external)

 

[TheFishMan65]

Are you saying the water level can't be into the black glass area? Why do you have to seal it?

I would make the top of the internal weir about 1 inch below the support glass and deep/wide enough that you can get your hand in there for cleaning. 3-4 holes across the back (so the bottom is about 1 1/2 inches below the black). The outside weir does not have to be tall only enough to allow for the height of all the miscellaneous Bean pipes.

 

[SkyFire]

Are you saying the water level can't be into the black glass area? Why do you have to seal it?

I would make the top of the internal weir about 1 inch below the support glass and deep/wide enough that you can get your hand in there for cleaning. 3-4 holes across the back (so the bottom is about 1 1/2 inches below the black). The outside weir does not have to be tall only enough to allow for the height of all the miscellaneous Bean pipes.

If the water level were above the black glass I'd need to seal it to keep it from leaking as you see from the pictures it's not really sealed.

I did read the original thread and Bean did have a 6" tall box which should be just tall enough for me to drill under the black glass and still be in the internal weir...I'll just need to add some height to the pipes to get the elbows in...I think. I don't mind a larger external box (with a smaller internal one) but that's more drilling and glass and bulkheads.

 

[chasekwe]

Hey Bean, I could really use some help!


So I set-up my tank with your system. I built it just like shown but I'm having some major problems with it, and as a result, it is very loud.


First off, let me say the one mistake I made in case it makes a difference. I meant to stagger the height of the siphon line to have it be a bit lower than the secondary drain. However, somewhere along the line things got switched and so the pipe with the true union ball valve is the one with the slightly higher standpipe. (<2mm)

That said, I'm not sure that that is my problem. Currently, almost ALL of the water going through the system drains through the secondary drain. It constantly fluctuates between normal function and the water level rising and triggering the conversion to a siphon. It drains a bit more then rises back up to siphon again.

There is a huge amount of water going through this drain, it is sloshing over the sides of the sump... and when I put my hand under the intended Siphon line I can't feel any current at all, nothing! It is so bad that if I turn the ball valve completely off on the siphon line I notice no difference in the draining of the tank at all.

So there is a constant "mini toilet flushing sound" coming from the siphon trigger tube on the 2nd pipe along with the ridiculous sloshing in the sump as all the water goes through that one line. If I hold my thumb over the tube and let it siphon all the way til the overflow box is nearly empty the it makes a very loud toilet flushing sound you can hear through the entire house.

I tried switching the caps on the 2 standpipes and making the shorter standpipe without the true union ball valve the siphon line and the other one the secondary drain. This made no difference at all, the secondary drain continued to drain about 95% of the water while the intended siphon line, almost none. Functioning was identical, just the pipes were switched.

I think the problem atm is that the siphon line isn't siphoning. I don't know if I missed some basic instruction somewhere but I thought I knew what I was doing... can you help me at all?



EDIT: Just would like to add, that if I cover the tubing on the secondary pipe and run it as a siphon, then restrict flow using the ball valve the system runs relatively quietly and evenly. However, that certainly wouldn't be a permanent solution... or I don't think so.

 

[TheFishMan65]

Can you move the pipe around? Or can you add a valve to the secondary pipe? Sorry sort of lost track of your names. BUt not only do you have to change the caps you have to changes the bottoms to switch the pipe around.

 

[chasekwe]

Thanks, switching the caps around was just to see if it did anything. I'm almost certain the issue I'm having is that the siphon line is not siphoning and I don't know what would cause this when the secondary standpipe does it so readily if I block off the air tube.

 

[T-Hunter]

Chasekwe -

I think you are right ... there is no full siphon if the open channel is "flushing". The siphon is unable to get started since there is something in your system that is keeping an air locked in the tube. You can convince your self of this by "priming" the full siphon in advance (hopefully all the lines are not glued yet inside your overflow box) - and making sure it operates quietly. This is the human intervention startup mode. Clearly, this does not work for the long term. If this checks out then the next task will be to figure you why you are not getting your siphon started. I suspect the height difference (it being a little higher) coupled with the rate with which the water comes up in the overflow box ... is biting you. Its possible that the open channel starts handling enough of the flow so that the full siphon never gets pushed hard enough to purge itself. Therefore you get stuck in a mode where the siphon never starts.

Another thing to look for is that the full siphon line ultimately empties just below the water level in sump. If it is too far below the water line and/or there are additional horizontal runs in your piping ... then the water head in the overflow box might not be able to purge the air to get the siphon started. Before the pump goes on there is a little bit of water sitting in the siphon line. You want that amount to be small so that it has an easy time purging itself.

If you could send a photo of the system ... it may help us debug for you. But based off what you have said here ... I would replumb things so that the full siphon is the lowest pips. I would also add a valve to the open channel line.

An added benefit of having a valve on the open channel line is that it eases tuning the full siphon line. Here is what I did:

I shut the open channel line (REMEMBER ALWAYS LEAVE YOUR BACK UP LINE OPEN!! ) and open the full siphon line. Turn on pump. When the water comes up the open channel line will start flushing - draining, filling, and then flushing again. I then start closing the full siphon line until the water stays about constant, then adjust a little more closed so the water just starts to rise in the overflow box in a stable manner. This is how I know I am getting 95% of the flow in the full siphon ... the other 5% is accumulating. Then I open the valve on the open channel and it is good to go. For this reason ... I think the additional valve really helps find the tuned setting for the full siphon easier and is convenient to have in the system. Also, down the road ... your pump will get older, pipes inner diameters will changes, etc, etc. - you will have to possible tune things again. This makes it a snap.

Hope this helps. Would love to see photos.

 

[chasekwe]

T-Hunter, thanks so much... I really appreciate the advice. Unfortunately everything is now hard plumbed so there's no redoing it without some major difficulty.

However, I think I fixed the problem in it's majority. I thought maybe it could be that my siphon cap was just not sealing for whatever reason. So I went and bought a new cap and threw it on there and, sure enough, siphon started right up. I guess there must have been a minuscule defect in the first cap.

My only issue now is that I can hear the water traveling through the secondary standpipe, sounds like it is dripping. Both standpipes are a straight vertical drop of about 5ft with no bends at all once exiting the overflow box, I think this is the issue. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to go about quieting this, the water falls through the pipes... that's gravity heh.

Any ideas if insulating the pipe with some sort of foam would help with this?



Some pictures inc shortly... The white pipe in the 4th pic isn't hard plumbed, just found it was quieter by a bit with it there. The white cap is, of course, the new one.

 

[T-Hunter]

I think foam insulation would surely help ... I will be doing the same myself. Have you played with the valve much on the full siphon line? For example open it more to get less flow in your open channel pipe?

Also, I am moving to a sweep elbow (or in other words a sanitary style tee) for my open channel per Bean's original design. I think the key is to maintain laminar flow into the open channel pipe and keep it clinging to the side of the pipe.

Tumbling flows are loud. This happens when the flow goes turbulent - for example a 90 degree bend in the flow path - or when the flow increases. So your best bet is a very small flow and to have smooth transitions - to minimize any noise.

Note that lots of people have suggested that in a few weeks/months it will get quieter due to the build up of scum in the open channel pipe. I assume that this helps keep the water clinging to the sides. If the flow is low enough it seems likely that the scum would provide a medium for the water to get transmitted downward in and prevent the tumbling cascade even more so. But I do not have experience with this yet as I am only still in testing phase in my garage right now with the system.

Good to hear your new cap solved the problem. Must be that line was acting as an open channel but since it was a little higher - then other line was getting most of the flow.

 

[chasekwe]

As to tweaking the flow in the siphon line, I've tried, the slightest bit one way or another and I lose the balance... it either drains or overloads the system.

Yes, I tried to find a sweep elbow in 3/4" pipe but I don't think they make them. My standpipes are all 3/4" then they widen to 1 1/4" after clearing the overflow box. This is my first plumbed build ever, and while I thought I'd done my research before I ordered the glass to build the tank, apparently I hadn't done enough. I certainly would have gone with 1" or 1 1/4" straight across the board from the start.

I've thought about going and buying like 10-15' of 5/8 or 3/4" tubing at Home Depot and spiraling it up and then jamming it up the full length of the 1 1/4" tubing, let the water run both through and down the outside of the plastic tubing and see if that helps...


Btw, I posted some pictures on the previous page.

 

[TheFishMan65]

chasekwe,

If I am reading write you go from 3/4 in the overflow to 1 1/4 outside and it is a straight drop? This maybe why you are getting drops of water. If you can shorten the run in the 3/4 piping or make it all 3/4 you might have beter luck. I am guessing, but imagine:
The water gently flows over your 3/4 elbow and starts it way down. It is straight shot so it start to pick up some speed and them maybe a little more. It comes to this wider pipe, but it is really moving now so graivity pulls it off the outward angle down the center of the pipe - rather than following the inside of the pipe. So some possible solutions:
a) Don't expand the pipe
b) Try and hit the expansion a little sooner so the water does not get pulled away from the pipe
c) Put in two 45 this will allow the water to get back on the side and may quite it down.

 

[chasekwe]

Thanks TheFishMan65,

I went out and bought the parts I need to convert the entire set-up to 3/4". I knew Bean expanded his pipes after they exited his tank so that was the reasoning behind my doing the same. However, I think in this case that isn't working... so I'm going to try switching over to entirely 3/4" and see how that helps.

 

[Chris2223]

Bean,
I have a question about my overflow setup. Everything is working fine, but whenever the system is turned off the water levels in the tank and sump are always different. It is never consistant, the water level will either be high in the tank and low in the sump or vise versa. Is this normal or should it always stay same? I have seen it change as much as a 1/2" high or low.... just wondering....


Thanks,
Chris

 

[T-Hunter]

chasekwe -

I think Fishman is spot on. Once the flow in the 3/4 gets to the 1 1/4 it begins freefall. I agree with his suggestions. But my concern is that you may find that 3/4 is just too small. Bean talks about 25% or less of the cross sectional area of the open channel. 3/4 inch gives you very little leeway to play with. Effectively this design is self tuning for the reason that all of the uncertainties such as pump fluctuations, barometer drops, etc, etc are taken up in the band of margin in the 25% of a 1 1/4 inch pipe or bigger. Even if the 3/4 all of the way you still "could" have a hard time longer term with keeping it tuned properly.

Surely you don't want to hear it ... but could you redrill the tank with bigger holes? Are they too close together for that? Is it acrylic or glass? If it is acrylic ... you may be able to make a template and use a router to make the holes bigger. I have never done it myself ... but an acrylic manufacturer that I talked to said they prefer to use routers for thru holes and they had circular templates for it. Maybe a plastics company would cut the bigger holes for you if you took the tank in. Just another idea.

Good luck ... let us know how it is going.

 

[chasekwe]

I had the back pane of glass tempered so that I could use a lesser thickness for vortechs.

The pump only pushes about 400 GPH, it's not like I've got some monster going. I'm going to try doing the complete downsize to 3/4", it needs to be more silent so I've got to try something. I just didn't know enough about how this system worked when I first started designing everything, I have no extra room to work with, so my options are very limited.

If I can't get it quieter it will need to go into the basement, which is problematic, because I know it won't get proper maintenance down there.

 

[T-Hunter]

Good luck ... be sure to let us all know if 3/4" trick did indeed help you. I'm now curious.

 

[TheFishMan65]

chasekwe,

Based on your flow 3/4 is probably OK for the open channel. However, I also mentioned adding a extra set of 45, don't know if you have room. I would try what ever is easier/cheaper and if one fails try the other. And if both fail I guess we will here from you again I hope one of them works.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Hey Bean, I could really use some help!


So I set-up my tank with your system. I built it just like shown but I'm having some major problems with it, and as a result, it is very loud.

Then something is not right.

First off, let me say the one mistake I made in case it makes a difference. I meant to stagger the height of the siphon line to have it be a bit lower than the secondary drain. However, somewhere along the line things got switched and so the pipe with the true union ball valve is the one with the slightly higher standpipe. (<2mm)

It only makes a difference if the siphon is not starting on its own.

That said, I'm not sure that that is my problem. Currently, almost ALL of the water going through the system drains through the secondary drain. It constantly fluctuates between normal function and the water level rising and triggering the conversion to a siphon. It drains a bit more then rises back up to siphon again.

The siphon being higher than the open channel is not helping. You could also have other problems preventing the siphon from starting.

There is a huge amount of water going through this drain, it is sloshing

I tried switching the caps on the 2 standpipes and making the shorter standpipe without the true union ball valve the siphon line and the other one the secondary drain. This made no difference at all, the secondary drain continued to drain about 95% of the water while the intended siphon line, almost none. Functioning was identical, just the pipes were switched.

Sounds like the siphon standpipe is submerged too deeply into the sump. It should only be submerged 1/2" or so during normal operation. You can drill a few small (1/8") holes in the siphon standpipe, just above the waterline (the normal operating waterline). This will allow the air to purge easier.

Are your standpipes, fittings and caps air-tight? If they are not, the siphon will not work properly.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Thanks TheFishMan65,

I went out and bought the parts I need to convert the entire set-up to 3/4". I knew Bean expanded his pipes after they exited his tank so that was the reasoning behind my doing the same. However, I think in this case that isn't working... so I'm going to try switching over to entirely 3/4" and see how that helps.

A 3/4" open channel pipe is likely going to gurgle with any reasonable flow through it.

You mentioned a "new" cap. Are you using PTFE tape or paste to seal the caps or are you just threading htem on?

Are ANY bubbles coming out of the siphin standpipe discharge?