Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[SonsOfLeda]

Hey - quick question for ya, Bean.

I'm wondering how to best feed my fuge based on your drain design. Would it be better to T off any particular drain (full-siphon or open-channel), or would it be best to T off of my return pump and not mess with the drains at all? After the T, regardless of which direction I go, I would have a valve to control flow to the fuge.

Thanks!

 

[malcomm]

It doesn't matter how far apart you space the holes so long as you can fit the plumbing.

yes it does matter!
Too close together and you risk weakening & cracking the glass. Space them as far apart as you can within your confines. Mine have about 5 inches between them across a 2 foot span.

 

[chasekwe]

yes it does matter!
Too close together and you risk weakening & cracking the glass. Space them as far apart as you can within your confines. Mine have about 5 inches between them across a 2 foot span.

Ah I meant in order to work the system, wasn't referring to glass strength. However, in my case I had the piece of glass with the holes in it custom cut and then tempered after completion so I could place the holes as I needed them.

 

[malcomm]

Ah I meant in order to work the system, wasn't referring to glass strength. However, in my case I had the piece of glass with the holes in it custom cut and then tempered after completion so I could place the holes as I needed them.

What does it cost you to have you glass tempered?
Not something thats generally done here.

 

[uncleof6]

So no need/reason to go full coast to coast?
Would 1" bulkheads to 1.5" plumbing be good?
How far apart should the three holes be?

There is never "no reason" to go coast to coast: it is the most efficient design.

1" siphon lines will flow more water than you are possibly dreaming of right now. Having said that, 1" open channel (air/water mix) do not work very well. This is a long established fact, that came from the horses mouth: Richard Durso.

Looking at it from another perspective, a drain system will plug at the smallest diameter of the system. So going from 1" up to 1.25, or even 1.5", the system will plug at the 1" diameter, by an object, that otherwise would not have plugged the system. Two arguments against 1" drains, that have nothing to do with flow rate. (well the durso IS flow limited) So this would say, 1.5" will have the best chance of avoiding FOD problems.

Arguably, 1.5" plumbing, for 400 gph, (other posters figure) is a little over kill, so a good compromise is 1.25" from the intake, all the way to the sump, even though 1" ( for a siphon line: forget it with just an open "durso" stanpipe) will handle well in excess of 1500 gph. But on the other hand, from experience, 400 gph is not much good for anything over a 40 gallon tank, so the sights should be set a bit higher than that. Just wanted to clear that up

The smart move is go as large as is practical (wide margin for interpretation there) with as few restrictions, and diameter changes as possible. But on the minimal side, 1" siphon and emergency, with a 1.25" open channel. But if your are doing a 1.25" open channel, might as well do them all 1.25", and call it a day. It has been stated thousands of times (yeah I counted every one ) that Bean used the 1" bulkheads because that is what was installed and drilled for, when he disigned the system. I would not take that, as being a design criteria-- although it does work.

Hole spacing: Contrary to what many suppose is the correct answer, hole spacing needs to be 1 - 1.5 times the hole diameter from the edges of the glass, and from other holes. This is not the minimum that you can get away with, but it is safe. Just for another twist, I would not put holes in anything less than a 6mm thick, so 1.5x will be safe. Hole (standpipe) spacing is not critical for the purposes of this drain system. The only placement critical issue, is the siphon, and open channel must be behind the same weir. Theoretically, the emergency can be in any convenient location. (Though I am not recommending that.)

Jim

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

There is never "no reason" to go coast to coast: it is the most efficient design.

1" siphon lines will flow more water than you are possibly dreaming of right now. Having said that, 1" open channel (air/water mix) do not work very well. This is a long established fact, that came from the horses mouth: Richard Durso.

Looking at it from another perspective, a drain system will plug at the smallest diameter of the system. So going from 1" up to 1.25, or even 1.5", the system will plug at the 1" diameter, by an object, that otherwise would not have plugged the system. Two arguments against 1" drains, that have nothing to do with flow rate. (well the durso IS flow limited) So this would say, 1.5" will have the best chance of avoiding FOD problems.

Arguably, 1.5" plumbing, for 400 gph, (other posters figure) is a little over kill, so a good compromise is 1.25" from the intake, all the way to the sump, even though 1" ( for a siphon line: forget it with just an open "durso" stanpipe) will handle well in excess of 1500 gph. But on the other hand, from experience, 400 gph is not much good for anything over a 40 gallon tank, so the sights should be set a bit higher than that. Just wanted to clear that up

The smart move is go as large as is practical (wide margin for interpretation there) with as few restrictions, and diameter changes as possible. But on the minimal side, 1" siphon and emergency, with a 1.25" open channel. But if your are doing a 1.25" open channel, might as well do them all 1.25", and call it a day. It has been stated thousands of times (yeah I counted every one ) that Bean used the 1" bulkheads because that is what was installed and drilled for, when he disigned the system. I would not take that, as being a design criteria-- although it does work.

Hole spacing: Contrary to what many suppose is the correct answer, hole spacing needs to be 1 - 1.5 times the hole diameter from the edges of the glass, and from other holes. This is not the minimum that you can get away with, but it is safe. Just for another twist, I would not put holes in anything less than a 6mm thick, so 1.5x will be safe. Hole (standpipe) spacing is not critical for the purposes of this drain system. The only placement critical issue, is the siphon, and open channel must be behind the same weir. Theoretically, the emergency can be in any convenient location. (Though I am not recommending that.)

Jim

All great info thank you.
Other than the 400 gph not good for my setup or any tank over 40g. I prefer 3-5x my displays' volume of turnover as do many others.
How much shorter should i have the two pieces cut for the box than the back pane of the tank?

 

[chasekwe]

What does it cost you to have you glass tempered?
Not something thats generally done here.

Onedayglass.com is where I got my 3 tempered panes from, extremely easy to use website. Pricing is pretty reasonable, just be careful not to order more than 4 holes... beyond 4 involves considerable fees.

The largest piece of glass they'll do is 4'x4' which wasn't a problem for me, but could be for others. The primary bonus with tempered glass is you can get away with a lot more when it comes to hole placement and you can use thinner panels which has some benefits. In my case, I wanted my back pane to be 3/8" instead of the 1/2" that was called for so I could use vortech MP10s.


I was so happy with ordering the tempered glass online I went looking for places that do bigger panels. I found companies that'll do absolutely massive sheets of tempered starphire glass and the like, will definitely looks to places like that when the day comes that I can manage a large system build.

Just went looking again real quick if you need something larger, http://www.guardian.com/en/na/gp_001018.html , these guys sell Tempered Low-Iron glass up to 15mm thick in sheets up to 204"x130". Now that could make one big friggn tank.

 

[ArmanS]

Hello everyone, I have a few plumbing questions about my tank. I am a newbie when it comes to plumbing so please bare with me. I should have done this before I started my tank but I rushed and set it up without thinking about the consequences of having a tank already running.

Here is my setup:

-120g acrylic 5' long tank, corner overflow.

- return pump is Little Giant 4-MD-SC

- Overflow has 1 bulkhead I am not 100% on the size, I beleive it is 1" as I can stick 5/8" tubing in it easily.

- Overflow has 2 Returns that are T'ed from the return pump, 1 return is about 6" from bottom of the tank and the other is about 12" from the bottom of the tank.

- Sump is a custom 30g acrylic sump with two baffles, and a large center area for my protein skimmer.

Here are my questons:

1. My overflow makes TONS of noise, you hear the water dropping from the top of the overflow down to the bulkhead where the water level is only about 1". I have read about durso standpipes and think this may solve the problem.

2. My sump at the top has a cut, that is about 3" from the top of the sump down, the waterlevel is never higherr then 10" and the top of the sump is about 20" up, should I be worried about this and seal it or not worry about it?

3. I am worried that if a power outage occurs, my sump will overflow not from the overflow but from the returns, would the water fall in from the returns if the pump was off?

4. I want to switch my return to something internal in my sump because then I can add a refugium next to my sump, would you guys recommend this and how would I know what would be a good return pump?

5. Regarding a power outage, my sump has what looks to be another "custom" bulkhead that is about 2" above the max water level, I think this was used as a drain, could I run a hose from it and run it to outside my house, and that would solve any power outage issue?

I am sure I will have more questions after I get some responses, I mainly want to solve the noise on my overflow, getting an internal return pump and adding a refugium would be great too.

Thanks

Arman

 

[wbstyles]

1" or 1.5" bulkheads?

1" or 1.5" bulkheads?

Bean,

I have a 150 gal tank and I want to put two of your failsafe systems on both ends of the tank. My question is should I use 1" bulkheads on each end or 1.5"? I want to make sure I can handle lots of flow. Also, I am using a no-teeth overflow box on the inside of the tank on both ends from front to back. How far should the top of the box be from the trim? This tank will be displayed in the wall. How deep and wide should the overflow boxes be?

Thanks,

WB

 

[T-Hunter]

Malcomm -

You mention that on restart that the open channel flushes/gurgles while the full siphon remains locked. Unfortunately, once the flushing is occurring then you have alleviated a great deal of the pressure (hydraulic head) on the full siphon - so it can then never purge itself.

In the case where you then close the secondary (open channel) line - you can accomplish it. This is REALLY good news. By doing this you put enough pressure on the full siphon to kick it in. Even with the back up engaged.

In your case (due to the T) and horizontal connect into the skimmer, you have a challenging purge - but not to challenging since you have demonstrated that it will indeed purge. So you would need to figure out how to give it more advantage. These are the things I would try in order:

1. Be sure that the full siphon line is a small amount (no more than 1/2 inch) below the water level in the sump.

2. Drill a couple of 1/8" holes in the full siphon line just above the water level. This will help get it started - but obviously water will flow out of these holes - under a lot of pressure once it starts. Be sure that they are directed in a way that you can live with in the sump.

3. Probably not an option for you ... but if you could place the full siphon line much lower than the open channel line it give you more time (as the water is rising) as well as more hydraulic head. This could give the full siphon a chance to kick in faster before the flow takes hold in the open channel.

4. A costly approach ($100) was suggested to me by afgun for my system: see http://www.plastomatic.com/arv.html. These are purge devices. You would put this at the top your downpipe in place of the cap. The pipe would operate as an open channel with no water in it. Then as the water came up the float would engage and close the air line thus converting it to a full siphon. It would not highly reccomend this to you since I have never tried it. They are about $100. And you may need to be strategic with where it is placed. So I may just want to igmore this one altogether since this will liekly lead to even more complex engineering to get to work. But in theory it is there.

That is what my best guess is on what is going on and a few ideas on how to possibly solve it.

I hope one of these works - let us know what you settle on.

 

[T-Hunter]

Bean,

I have a 150 gal tank and I want to put two of your failsafe systems on both ends of the tank. My question is should I use 1" bulkheads on each end or 1.5"? I want to make sure I can handle lots of flow. Also, I am using a no-teeth overflow box on the inside of the tank on both ends from front to back. How far should the top of the box be from the trim? This tank will be displayed in the wall. How deep and wide should the overflow boxes be?

Thanks,

WB

You probably want to lean toward bigger for the open channel since it will give you more "bandwidth" on the range over which the system would stay silent and operate once tuned. But as far as how much flow (at max) you could get down your full siphon - you can compute this by computing the velocity of the falling water based on the "head" then computing the flow rate based on the area of pipe. I would suggest using Bean's calculator on his site to make this easy: Go to: http://www.beananimal.com/articles/hydraulics-for-the-aquarist.aspx and put in your values.

Note that you will have two of these ... and also note that usually you get an incredible amount of flow out of a 1" full siphon. For example: a 1" pipe and 24" of head (typical for an under tank sump) would get you 1667 GPH. in your case that mean 2 of them would allow you to achieve up to 3200 GPH to the sump. Remember that you don't use all of it of course - since you dial the valve on that line to effectively make the cross sectional area smaller so that the system gets tuned to your system/pump.

In terms of the overflow box height question ... you better go with Bean ... since I don't have much experience with that style of box.

 

[T-Hunter]

Arman -

Lot of questions and possible design exploration in your post. I would recommend going to Bean's site - to get a better grounding in the various standpipes and what he went through to originally settle on his design. It is a great write up. This will probably help. At a high level, even Durso's are not completely silent, But Bean's approach is really silent !!!! It is actually amazing. BUT - it is a complex set of things that are happening in it ... and if you deviate from his exact build - you may need to really take more of a rigorous engineering approach or a lot of fiddling to get it to work right.

The key issue that seems to be trickiest is the restart of the full siphon on a power cycle of the pump. This is due to a complex set of dynamical things occurring hydraulically in order for the air to purge and and the full siphon to start. If you do it exactly like Bean (or at least close) - then you should have no problem. If you were to add in other configurations ... then it may take some more work ...

Hope this helps.

Bean's summary: http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx

 

[krikor]

Bean,

I have a 150 gal tank and I want to put two of your failsafe systems on both ends of the tank. My question is should I use 1" bulkheads on each end or 1.5"? I want to make sure I can handle lots of flow. Also, I am using a no-teeth overflow box on the inside of the tank on both ends from front to back. How far should the top of the box be from the trim? This tank will be displayed in the wall. How deep and wide should the overflow boxes be?

Thanks,

WB

I use 1 1" sized Beananimal system on my 150... and my full siphon is more than half closed on an iwaki 40d return pump going full bore.

I dont think you need 2 at all.

you can make the overflow boxes as big as you want... but youre going to want atleast 3" deep and about 4-5" tall... unless you build your overflow after the holes and plumbing is in... then you can make it tight up agaisnt there, but will have a hard time replacing it... id make it as deep as the biggest part of plumbing you will have to fit in there. so you can fix the plumbing at any time.

Length is a preference, i took my overflow over 1/3rd of the tank just because of my set up.

Here are some pics... My overflow is wayy bigger than it needs to be... it was just a trial.

FTS:

Sump:

Overflow in action:

Plumbing when i was making the tank:

 

[wbstyles]

Are all three bulkheads drilled at the same height? Also, Bean mentioned that 1.5" bulkheads could be used. He just used 1" becasue that is what he had. However, if one set of the fail -safe system can handle upwards of 3000 GPH, would I need an additional set a th eother end of the tank? MY thought was it would add greater skimming capacity. Half the distance organics would have to travel. I was thinking 1.5" bulkheads, but if I have two sets, should I just use 1" on both ends?

Thanks,

WB

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Is 3/32" enough space on each end for the silicone joint to the side panes of the tank??

If so, I am about to order my box pieces from a local glass shop. (75g...47-6/16" internal, so I asked for 3/16" on each side for silicone.
47-3/16" x 5"
47-3/16" x 3-3/4"

1/4 clear glass, as they had no smoked or tinted glass, with 'seamed' edges.

I will have 3 - 1.25" holes drilled evenly apart at 12" intervals, then use 1.25" plumbing throughout.


Sound good??

 

[scott26]

Are all three bulkheads drilled at the same height? Also, Bean mentioned that 1.5" bulkheads could be used. He just used 1" becasue that is what he had. However, if one set of the fail -safe system can handle upwards of 3000 GPH, would I need an additional set a th eother end of the tank? MY thought was it would add greater skimming capacity. Half the distance organics would have to travel. I was thinking 1.5" bulkheads, but if I have two sets, should I just use 1" on both ends?

Thanks,

WB

All three can be at the same height but it is recommend to put the open channel pipe about a 1/4 inch higher so that the full siphon pipe can get started faster. I am using 1" on my 90 gallon it is better to use a 1.5" bulk head as it reduces any noise that might occur with a small ID pipe. Just to be sure you are going to have two full siphon pipes operating at the same time?

 

[scott26]

Is 3/32" enough space on each end for the silicone joint to the side panes of the tank??

If so, I am about to order my box pieces from a local glass shop. (75g...47-6/16" internal, so I asked for 3/16" on each side for silicone.
47-3/16" x 5"
47-3/16" x 3-3/4"

1/4 clear glass, as they had no smoked or tinted glass, with 'seamed' edges.

I will have 3 - 1.25" holes drilled evenly apart at 12" intervals, then use 1.25" plumbing throughout.


Sound good??

I dont know about the silicone part I would like to figure that out too... and on the 1.25" system you might have trouble finding parts to assemble the whole system. the 1" or 1.5" is a more common size at least from where I am from.

 

[albano]

WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM THE EXPERTS...before I fill my acrylic 450g DT,(96"X40"X27"h) I just want to be sure, I've got it right.
I have two 24"x6"x6" corner overflows, each drilled with three 1 1/2" bulkheads. I'm planning on using a 5500gph hammerhead pump for returning water from separate 150g sump,and 120g refugium,(each fed by 1 overflow) in addition to two 20-30g random surge tanks (some of the pump output will be diverted to the skimmer/surge tanks/reactors/frag tank)....From all the flow charts I've seen, the 1 1/2" plumbing should be more than adequate to handle the flow, from the pump and surge tanks...NOW THE QUESTION...for that extra measure of safety, should I redrill 1 hole in each overflow, to use a 2" bulkhead and piping, and if so, should it be used as the siphon, open channel or emergency standpipe?

Thanks, Alfie


.

 

[wbstyles]

All three can be at the same height but it is recommend to put the open channel pipe about a 1/4 inch higher so that the full siphon pipe can get started faster. I am using 1" on my 90 gallon it is better to use a 1.5" bulk head as it reduces any noise that might occur with a small ID pipe. Just to be sure you are going to have two full siphon pipes operating at the same time?

Yes, I intend on having two sets of the fail-safe system, one on each end. That means I will have two full siphons, two open channels and two emergencies.

 

[scott26]

Yes, I intend on having two sets of the fail-safe system, one on each end. That means I will have two full siphons, two open channels and two emergencies.

Sounds like it might be more complicated to keep the system in tune. Might have to heard from bean or uncleof6 on this but I think it has been discussed before and wasn't reccommend.