CoralsAddiction
Active member
Try LL Cool J or Drake"¦kids these days...
Splitting Carpet Anemonies
- Thread starter ilvfsh
- Start date
Try LL Cool J or Drake"¦kids these days...
D-Nak
Active member
LL Cool J? Wow you are dating yourself there. Isn't he a host of some lip sync show? What else has he done? I kid, I kid.
And if kids these days are making babies to Drake, just shoot me now. I don't feel blessed.
CoralsAddiction
Active member
Thanks. I am reading it right now. I am a sucker for studies like this.
CoralsAddiction
Active member
Ok, I just finished reading this great article. The quote you provided above was only a small part of their experiments and judging by the tone ("might not apply" and "may not survive") is speculative. The study explored asexual reproduction of BTAs how (a) their size, (b) splitting them in halves and quarters and (c) feeding them affected their survival after propagation. But that's okay. Its a good start.
The researchers that had done the study set the tone for future discoveries whether positive or negative for Stichodactyla specimens. As the author said "marine ornamental aquaculture is still in its infancy". Thus we should not be too quick to dismiss any potential for future anemone culturing. If further studies showed that asexual reproduction is definitely not viable for Stichodactyla Gigantea or Haddoni specimens then I would focus on sexual reproduction.
Thanks for the link again. I am appreciative of the study you provided and not trying to undermine it. if anything, it gives hope for future experiments.
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ThRoewer
New member
I think, once figured out, it will be silly easy. For sure way easier than propagating angelfish (which is already done on commercial scale).
Scientist are primarily good at spending vast amounts of money and usually deliver relatively little outcome (per dollar).
For simply that reason I wouldn't necessarily trust scientist to be very effective in breeding attempts. Hobbyists, often under the crudest conditions, had more success.
I would rather see the place of scientists in doing the basic research of the reproductive mechanisms of anemones to give us an idea where to start.
Newly settled H. crispa
H. crispa early development
This is seriously cool. To me it looks very similar to a baby coral.
I will do the same (multiple gigs in 3 connected tanks), though I will skip the Barry White and rather go with moon phase, tidal and seasonal simulation.
Another thing to look into is toxin reduction in our systems. PVC for example has been shown to have some negative effects on coral spawning, so I expect it also not to be helpful with anemone propagation.
Unfortunately in our tanks we usually have way too much PVC parts that constantly leach out toxins. Teflon would be ideal but prohibitively expensive. HDPE or PP would be the next best materials, but like Teflon, can't be glued and are still quite a bit more expensive than PVC.
In general I expect sexual anemone reproduction to be very close to how corals sexually reproduce. And that has already happened in reef tanks.
The only issue I could see is that our anemones are just babies and not yet mature enough to reproduce.
BonsaiNut
Premium Member
It's not a start. It's one of a long series of articles on anemone reproduction. I would recommend you look into them - or for that matter the many other papers on anemone biology.
It is clear you are set on chopping up more S. gigantea. I won't be participating in your "study". Like the original subject of this thread, you will just be another in a long series of failures, costing animals' lives and learning nothing in the process that we didn't already know. The definition of insanity? For reefers is the thought that you will do the same thing as everyone else - but you will be the ONE PERSON who it will work for.
Enjoy your dog chopping...
CoralsAddiction
Active member
Confucius once said "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance". Sure their studies aren't cheap but neither is the cost of becoming a professor. A hobbyist will in most cases have his/her heart and mind in the right place. However he/she may also be ill equipped with tools necessary to make scientific studies, observations and experiments.
CoralsAddiction
Active member
Wow, ok. Thanks. Look at the publication date of the study you yourself cited. October 2014. I don't really want any conflict with you so I'll just add you to my ignore list. I have no time for inflammatory posts like yours.
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CoralsAddiction
Active member
Relax guys...I tried D-Nak's suggestion and the Love Ray hit my green gig!
It's happening!! I saw it make a smooth (but slow) move towards the purple :lolspin:
LOL.
I am more of a Boyz II Men guy.
clorox
New member
Gigs like it 'old school' :love1:
CoralsAddiction
Active member
Just wanted to clarify what I said in case people missed the entire long line of posts.
All I suggested was to conduct a study in full blown laboratories under supervision of marine biologists. The impact of it would be very minimal compared to how many of these anemones are killed in collection, transport, whole sale, LFS and ultimately in our hands. But the benefit would be huge with less anemones taken from the wild. And here I am being accused of chopping up gigs and...puppies?
All I suggested was to conduct a study in full blown laboratories under supervision of marine biologists. The impact of it would be very minimal compared to how many of these anemones are killed in collection, transport, whole sale, LFS and ultimately in our hands. But the benefit would be huge with less anemones taken from the wild. And here I am being accused of chopping up gigs and...puppies?
CoralsAddiction
Active member
Aww that emoji is so cute. Made my heart melt.
D-Nak
Active member
Relax guys...I tried D-Nak's suggestion and the Love Ray hit my green gig!
It's happening!! I saw it make a smooth (but slow) move towards the purple :lolspin:
You, my friend, have too much time on your hands. Hurry up and finish getting your tank set up. :beer:
clorox
New member
Haha, I did it while I was watching the Giants game
The tank takes forever because of shipping delays. I think I might get it wet in about 10 days. I'll post the thread at some point
I'm so nervous about driving my gigs to SF :eek1:
CoralsAddiction
Active member
When I sold my XL gig I met the buyer in Garden Grove by Marine Depot when I was picking up dry goods from them"¦50-60 min drive. After the trip the gig looked in as good of a shape as when it was just taken out of the tank, and was still attached to the same monster rock I was trying to get rid of. Now Garden Grove is no SF but I think it should be okay.
OrionN
Moved on
I would never split my Gigantea, and never recommend that anybody spit their.
However Just assume that ryanrid lied about his Gigantea and ridicules him in this thread as we did in this thread was wrong, IMO.
There are many reason why someone not having pictorial proof that they did something. We (at least I) should not have assumed that he just lied about it.
Follow ruanrid posts and thread the last few years, I have change my mind about him. I think is is a very good reefer who know what he is doing and not the type of person who just make up thinks like most people on this thread though he did.
In that way, I think I own ryanrid an apology.
However Just assume that ryanrid lied about his Gigantea and ridicules him in this thread as we did in this thread was wrong, IMO.
There are many reason why someone not having pictorial proof that they did something. We (at least I) should not have assumed that he just lied about it.
Follow ruanrid posts and thread the last few years, I have change my mind about him. I think is is a very good reefer who know what he is doing and not the type of person who just make up thinks like most people on this thread though he did.
In that way, I think I own ryanrid an apology.
shanesreef
New member
First, I would like to say that I am posting simple because I think we should keep an open mind to this subject. But we should not destroy animals unnecessarily. I also understand the need to record results as proof. It seems if asexual reproduction is pursued it would be best to use haddoni for learning as they are the hardiest of the carpets.
Keeping and Open Mind- Do we really think comparing cutting a dog or a koi in half is a fair comparison? These animals have little similarity to the animal being discussed. However bubble tip anemones and mags have been split and are a fair comparison.
Perhaps the closest comparison with humans is the separation of "Siamese twins." Maybe the anemone mentioned in the beginning of the thread with two mouths was a twin or maybe it was just a defect. Regardless, surgery is not without risk but not impossible.
Healing - The comment of the carpets being damaged by powerheads and healing in aquariums is important. As mentioned early in the thread it seems that maybe the carpets have less of an ability to heal than other anemones. Perhaps if we were able select animals that were very strong; provide surgical like cuts to minimize damage of remaining tissue; and keep the animals environment sterile; or even use antibiotics post procedure (like is done with dogs and humans who have surgery) there could be a chance of propagating carpet anemones.
Asexual vs. Sexual Reproduction -As for benefits of sexual and asexual reproduction. Both have benefits. Sexual reproduction would be best as it would definitely make preservation of species easy. But I do not know of many hobbyist sexually producing anemones in aquariums. However we are splitting anemones with success. If we were able to sexual reproduce carpets, we could eventually choose parents with characteristics we would like reproduced. Then lets say if we were able to produce a really beautiful or exceptional specimen in the offspring we could split it creating clones. This process has been used in horticulture for quite some time.
Just my 2 cents,
Shane
Keeping and Open Mind- Do we really think comparing cutting a dog or a koi in half is a fair comparison? These animals have little similarity to the animal being discussed. However bubble tip anemones and mags have been split and are a fair comparison.
Perhaps the closest comparison with humans is the separation of "Siamese twins." Maybe the anemone mentioned in the beginning of the thread with two mouths was a twin or maybe it was just a defect. Regardless, surgery is not without risk but not impossible.
Healing - The comment of the carpets being damaged by powerheads and healing in aquariums is important. As mentioned early in the thread it seems that maybe the carpets have less of an ability to heal than other anemones. Perhaps if we were able select animals that were very strong; provide surgical like cuts to minimize damage of remaining tissue; and keep the animals environment sterile; or even use antibiotics post procedure (like is done with dogs and humans who have surgery) there could be a chance of propagating carpet anemones.
Asexual vs. Sexual Reproduction -As for benefits of sexual and asexual reproduction. Both have benefits. Sexual reproduction would be best as it would definitely make preservation of species easy. But I do not know of many hobbyist sexually producing anemones in aquariums. However we are splitting anemones with success. If we were able to sexual reproduce carpets, we could eventually choose parents with characteristics we would like reproduced. Then lets say if we were able to produce a really beautiful or exceptional specimen in the offspring we could split it creating clones. This process has been used in horticulture for quite some time.
Just my 2 cents,
Shane
BonsaiNut
Premium Member
Minh, I never assumed he lied. Rather he said something outrageous, that didn't make sense based on science, biology, or the extensive experience of many reefers. Then he went on to say that he was going to post photos (which he never did) and write-ups (which he never did) - not once but several times, over the course of months. To this day he has not done what he said he was going to do - even after many of us said to him he wasn't making any sense. I sent him a polite PM - which he never answered.
Only after it had gone on for a while did I start to make fun - not of him, but of the general concept of cutting a creature in half and assuming it would heal into two whole creatures. The reason why I did this is to try to prevent people from killing these amazing animals. But it doesn't matter. It seems people will continue to do so regardless of what anyone says - what you say - what Dr. Fautin says, what the scientific community at large says. They come to these forums and are only interested in people telling them what they want to hear - versus trying to actually LEARN something.
So if you feel you have wronged him, go ahead and apologize. I actually don't feel bad about him as a person - I just feel bad about what he said. And as you know, he is just the last in a long line of people who claim they are "fragging" carpets because they cut one in half and it is still "alive" one week later. Then you never hear from them again, and we have to assume they failed and are simply too embarrassed to come here and admit it. What else are we to assume? There is apparently no end to the line of people who feel they will do the same thing.... and get different results... while killing an animal.
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BonsaiNut
Premium Member
Two species of clown anemones (out of ten) asexually reproduce naturally via longitudinal fission. Guess which two species of anemone people are "splitting with success"?
The other eight species of clown anemones do not asexually reproduce naturally via longitudinal fission. Guess which eight species of clown anemone people can't split successfully?
The only partial exception to this is S. haddoni, which has been split with limited, infrequent success. Not enough is known about the long-term health of the splits to know if they survived long term, but people have, on occasion, gotten a split to survive. Success rates so far have been less than 50%, so in general people ended up with fewer anemones than they started with, if they didn't kill the anemone outright.
S. mertensii has a SINGLE case of an anemone being split where one half survived. The surviving half was reported as never being as healthy as the original anemone, and it eventually faded and died.
Of the other anemones there is not ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE of ANY SPLIT where even one half of the anemone survived. People cut them in half, and they died. All of them.
Here's what I'd like to hear from the next person to cut one of these anemones up. I just want him to report what he is doing differently from everyone else, and why he feels this is going to change the outcome. The assumption is that our METHODS are flawed, and that if we can figure out a better METHOD that suddenly we will be able to split these creatures. What if it isn't our METHODS but the BIOLOGY of these creatures that prevents success?
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