Splitting Carpet Anemonies

[ThRoewer]

First, I would like to say that I am posting simple because I think we should keep an open mind to this subject. But we should not destroy animals unnecessarily. I also understand the need to record results as proof. It seems if asexual reproduction is pursued it would be best to use haddoni for learning as they are the hardiest of the carpets.

Keeping and Open Mind- Do we really think comparing cutting a dog or a koi in half is a fair comparison? These animals have little similarity to the animal being discussed. However bubble tip anemones and mags have been split and are a fair comparison.
Perhaps the closest comparison with humans is the separation of "Siamese twins." Maybe the anemone mentioned in the beginning of the thread with two mouths was a twin or maybe it was just a defect. Regardless, surgery is not without risk but not impossible.

Healing - The comment of the carpets being damaged by powerheads and healing in aquariums is important. As mentioned early in the thread it seems that maybe the carpets have less of an ability to heal than other anemones. Perhaps if we were able select animals that were very strong; provide surgical like cuts to minimize damage of remaining tissue; and keep the animals environment sterile; or even use antibiotics post procedure (like is done with dogs and humans who have surgery) there could be a chance of propagating carpet anemones.

Asexual vs. Sexual Reproduction -As for benefits of sexual and asexual reproduction. Both have benefits. Sexual reproduction would be best as it would definitely make preservation of species easy. But I do not know of many hobbyist sexually producing anemones in aquariums. However we are splitting anemones with success. If we were able to sexual reproduce carpets, we could eventually choose parents with characteristics we would like reproduced. Then lets say if we were able to produce a really beautiful or exceptional specimen in the offspring we could split it creating clones. This process has been used in horticulture for quite some time.

Just my 2 cents,
Shane

Entacmaea anemones (BTAs) are not very closely related to carpet anemones. And at least some BTAs split naturally, but not necessarily all. I'm assuming that there are actually different strains or even species of BTAs.

The notion that because you can cut one species successfully you should be able to do the same with another is deeply flawed.

Healing abilities are not the key but rather if a species is capable of regenerating missing organs, and to which extent.
If I cut myself I heal very quickly, but for my wife it takes forever. But none of us can regenerate missing organs.

I think the best analogy to anemones are starfish. You can cut an arm of a starfish and pretty much all species will be able to regenerate it, but only with a few the cut off arm will be able to regrow the rest of the starfish. Some starfish species can even be cut in half through the center of the body and both halves will likely live and regenerate the missing halves. Though other species will just die when you try to split them like that. It is pretty much the same as what we see in anemones.

Even with BTAs and magnificas I would prefer to rather let them split naturally than forcing it with a knife. I would think the natural splitting of anemones follows the pattern of cell division: a cell that gets ready to split starts dividing internally first and only after all the internal parts are split the outer body splits to separate both halves. I would imagine that the asexual reproduction of anemones follows a similar pattern.

Another question to ask is age. Both halves of a dividing organism have the same genetic age as the original organism. If anemones have not an unlimited lifetime this could lead to problems in the long run.
Sexually produced offspring starts always with a reset life clock - another point why I would prefer this method.

 

[BonsaiNut]

I think the best analogy to anemones are starfish. You can cut an arm of a starfish and pretty much all species will be able to regenerate it, but only with a few the cut off arm will be able to regrow the rest of the starfish. Some starfish species can even be cut in half through the center of the body and both halves will likely live and regenerate the missing halves. Though other species will just die when you try to split them like that. It is pretty much the same as what we see in anemones.

Thank you. Much better analogy than Border Collies

 

[shanesreef]

When I referred to splitting anemones with success. I was simply trying to direct to a more fair comparison than dogs or koi. I understand which anemones have been documented to split naturally. And have witness bta spit naturally in my aquarium. Guess what some of those live and some did not, while my original anemone is fine.

I really wonder how many anemones out there die from splitting. I'm sure more die from other causes. You speak as if there are vast crowds of irresponsible reefers out there just waiting to cut up animals. I think the vast majority of reefers have a deep appreciation for animal life.

No argument that we should document anything that we want to publish. Also agree we should not be irresponsible, but nothing wrong with being open minded.
Shane

 

[CoralsAddiction]

No argument that we should document anything that we want to publish. Also agree we should not be irresponsible, but nothing wrong with being open minded.
Shane

Somehow keeping an open mind is taken by some as a vicious act and conspiracy to kill anemones for personal gain and curiosity. It's unbelievable. Anyway, I am out of this thread.

 

[D-Nak]

I really wonder how many anemones out there die from splitting. I'm sure more die from other causes. You speak as if there are vast crowds of irresponsible reefers out there just waiting to cut up animals. I think the vast majority of reefers have a deep appreciation for animal life.

No argument that we should document anything that we want to publish. Also agree we should not be irresponsible, but nothing wrong with being open minded.
Shane

I'd be upset if I heard of even ONE carpet that was split in an attempt to create two carpets. I agree that many die from other causes -- the main cause is simply dying during the collection process simply to supply the hobbyists' demand for them.

It seems like you're correlating splitting carpet anemones with being open minded. What we're trying to say is that people are actually being closed minded when trying to split anemones -- they're convinced it's possible despite what biology has told them.

Somehow keeping an open mind is taken by some as a vicious act and conspiracy to kill anemones for personal gain and curiosity. It's unbelievable. Anyway, I am out of this thread.

I think you've been active on these boards long enough for other members to know that you're not being malicious, and I think what you previously said was taken out of context.

But I think the main point of this thread is to convince people that if they want to learn about anemone reproduction, they have to get past the notion that because some anemones can reproduce via asexual reproduction, that they should assume that all anemones can. There isn't a need for an experiment to prove or disprove this.

In the age of Google where we now assume that the answer is simply on the internet, the breeding of gigantea is an unknown. I think the scientific community is focused on the other benefits of gigantea, not how they reproduce. If you Google "anemone toxin" you'll see what I'm talking about. Imagine if a cure for cancer was developed from gigantea neurotoxin.

 

[CoralsAddiction]

I think you've been active on these boards long enough for other members to know that you're not being malicious, and I think what you previously said was taken out of context.

Thanks. It definitely was...and that's after I thanked them a million times for referencing a study. But that's okay. No hard feelings.

 

[ThRoewer]

...Imagine if a cure for cancer was developed from gigantea neurotoxin.

You may think figuring out how to breed them in large quantities would all of the sudden be one of the most hottest and well funded research topics.

Though I think all the money will first go into figuring out how to synthesize the toxin in the lab. Only if that doesn't give the desired results the research may actually shift to how to breed them... or they just collect them in the wild until none are left.

 

[D-Nak]

You may think figuring out how to breed them in large quantities would all of the sudden be one of the most hottest and well funded research topics.

Though I think all the money will first go into figuring out how to synthesize the toxin in the lab. Only if that doesn't give the desired results the research may actually shift to how to breed them... or they just collect them in the wild until none are left.

I'm not too concerned, to be quite honest. My understanding is that S. gigantea are quite common all over the Indo-Pacific. Just for the aquarium trade alone, gigs are collected from, but not limited to, the Philippines, Vietnam, Indonesia, and Singapore.

Here's an interesting read (one of many): http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jvatitd/v18n1/07.pdf

 

[BonsaiNut]

I'm not too concerned, to be quite honest. My understanding is that S. gigantea are quite common all over the Indo-Pacific. Just for the aquarium trade alone, gigs are collected from, but not limited to, the Philippines, Vietnam, Indonesia, and Singapore.

Here's an interesting read (one of many): http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jvatitd/v18n1/07.pdf

Interesting read, though I hate the idea of injecting sea anemone toxic into mice

I was intrigued to see this: Marwick (31) has shown the venom of Conus magnus to have 1000 times more analgesic activity than morphine.

 

[BonsaiNut]

Here's an interesting read (one of many): http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jvatitd/v18n1/07.pdf

I have posted these before, but I think sometimes they get lost over time. Dr. Scott's excellent series of papers on E. quadricolor and H. crispa sexual reproduction:

Gametogenic and reproductive cycles of the sea anemone, Entacmaea quadricolor

Broadcast spawning of two species of sea anemone, Entacmaea quadricolor and Heteractis crispa, that host anemonefish

Embryonic and Larval Development of the Host Sea Anemones Entacmaea quadricolor and Heteractis crispa

Larval settlement and juvenile development of sea anemones that provide habitat for anemonefish

Effects of feeding on the growth rates of captive-bred Heteractis crispa: a popular marine ornamental for aquariums

 

[shanesreef]

First I would like to say that I respect the knowledge that each of you share with forum readers such as myself. I seldom post and maybe I should not have this time. Bonsainut I love anemones and have enjoyed reading your post and have learned a great deal from them. In no way did I intend for my attempt to make my point to be "malicious".

I have kept carpets for years never cut one of them. And I just attained my first mag. this year,never have had opportunity to purchase before. I would not dare cut the mag . But even if I did try to cut it I would be cutting "blindly". Therefore my result would be based on chance or luck rather than skill or knowledge.

ThRoewer your explanation with the starfish is a great comparison -That keeping the appropriate organs in place is critical to the survival. However, the ability to heal and resist infection after such an event is critical as well. Also the point that you make about how other anemones are splitting naturally is important. When they split naturally there is likely little damage done to cellular structure of the original or the "new" organism. When cut with a "box cutter on a butcher block" there is undoubtedly going to be a lot of tissue damage making them a huge risk for infection creating a need for healing. But, "maybe" if separated with surgical like skill they could survive. I do not think those without the appropriate skill or knowledge should attempt separating any anemone.

I understand your guys point that thus far there has been no documented cases of carpets splitting naturally. I have seen a fish stores haddoni cut in half by a power head. Two parts remained alive for a couple of weeks, but ultimately only one part survived. I wish I knew if the dead part had any part of the mouth or pedal attached but I don't. instead of saying keeping an "open mind" to the possibility, I am going to just say "That because it has not been recorded does not make it impossible." More than anything I am just optimistic that one day we will be able to reproduce more ocean life in captivity reducing the need for collecting.

Respectfully - Shane

 

[BonsaiNut]

First I would like to say that I respect the knowledge that each of you share with forum readers such as myself. I seldom post and maybe I should not have this time. Bonsainut I love anemones and have enjoyed reading your post and have learned a great deal from them. In no way did I intend for my attempt to make my point to be "malicious".

I didn't think anyone was being malicious! But I think sometimes as reefers we act too quickly based on what we see with casual observation. In this case, the weight of evidence would suggest that S. gigantea, and certain other anemone species, cannot be aquacultured via longitudinal fission / fragging / cutting. It isn't the method that is at fault - it is the biology.

Sadly, there just isn't a lot of scientific studies on anemones for us to refer to. I would love, for example, to make a small incision in a S. gigantea and observe, at a microscopic level, how it heals. Then I would try the same with H. magnifica and E. quadricolor, and see how (or if) there is a difference.

I would never have even suggested this in the past, because S. gigantea is so notoriously prone to fatal infections, but with the great work done by Minh and other reefers, I think we now have the beginnings of a body of knowledge about how to deal with at least one aspect of care that has prevented us from being successful in the past.

That is why I keep asking - what are we going to do different and why do we feel it will be successful? We can't just keep cutting anemones and killing them (and no I don't think tons of anemones are cut... any more... and I think threads like this are one of the reasons). Scientific inquiry is all about building stepping stones of knowledge. Each step forward might be small, but they should always be steps forward, instead of repeating the same thing.

If you look at the papers by Anna Scott, there is a definite method to her work. She started by observing the sexual development of the anemones, then watched them reproduce, then studied how the larva developed, and even studied how feeding the juvenile anemones impacted their growth rates. If you were an aquaculturalist, there are just a few holes you would need to fill in before you could consider a business case for aquaculturing H. crispa. (E. quad, as we know, reproduces easily via fission so sexual reproduction would not be necessary). I have asked her if she could to do the same for S. gigantea, but she needs money

 

[BonsaiNut]

I have asked her if she could do the same for S. gigantea, but she needs money

Quick note because I don't want to sound like I am disparaging her. She needs money because S. gigantea doesn't occur naturally in New South Wales and she would need to observe S. gigantea in situ in the wild, as well as bring individuals home to her lab to conduct additional work.

 

[ThRoewer]

Quick note because I don't want to sound like I am disparaging her. She needs money because S. gigantea doesn't occur naturally in New South Wales and she would need to observe S. gigantea in situ in the wild, as well as bring individuals home to her lab to conduct additional work.

What about crowdfunding? That seems to be the easiest way to raise money these days?

 

[BonsaiNut]

What about crowdfunding? That seems to be the easiest way to raise money these days?

When we were talking about it, we were sort of half-joking. I have no idea what kind of funding it would require. I just sent her an email asking her for a ballpark figure - assuming she would be interested. She's on vacation right now but will be back next week.