STOP Selling These Species! (rant)

SoloChromis

New member
It's an epidemic in this hobby that you'll notice at nearly every LFS you visit, there always seems to be those "showy" fish that every novice hopes he/she will get the greenlight from the employee at the store to go ahead and add to their tank, but the majority of the time have too small of a tank or the bulk of their fish wish list won't be compatible with these particular fish. The species I'm talking about are...

Baby Hippo Tangs (Paracanthurus hepatus) - Pitiful track record in aquaria and they're typically only sold because of the cute factor that grabs so many customers attentions. Hippo Tangs can be hardy fish, but seeing 20x 1" juveniles wedged in the cracks of coral skeletons makes me wonder how many will actually survive and thrive longterm.

Dascyllus Damsels (3 stripe, 4 stripe, domino etc.) - Is anybody ever happy they added these fishes to their tank? This genus represents a good chunk of the fish "horror stories" that people love to talk about (mine was a Hoeven's wrasse, go figure :rolleyes:), and if it's not a situation where some poor soul simply didn't expect that little black and white guppy to turn into a murderous tyrant, than it was one of those people that still insists on putting animals through torturous conditions to cycle their tank, only to toss the surviving fish after the tank is nice and broken into. The bottom line is this - there are too many other benign, affordable, and brightly colored damsel species to keep selling the Dexter Morgan of damselfish (minus the vague morals and strange likability) using the excuse "people need damsels".

Baby Clown Triggers (Balistoides conspicillum) - By far THE most popular among novice hobbyists IME, at least when it comes to asking "would that be okay in my tank?". These fish are misleading, and I can guarantee you *most* people in this hobby do not have a tank large enough to comfortably house a full grown clown trigger, especially given their restrictive temperament and propensity to nip on things (like power chords :spin1:). They may sell quickly, but if they even survive to maturity they will most likely rip whoever is unlucky enough to be roomies with them to shreds. Not very fish friendly, let alone reef friendly.

Juvenile Panther Groupers (Cromileptes altivelis) - Like aquatic dalmatian puppies, they're freaking adorable... unfortunately like the clown trigger, they simply won't mingle well in 95% of tanks out there if they even make it to maturity. They grow way too big for any but the most massive of tanks and are highly predatory, so anything that can fit in his mouth is going there eventually. They're pretty much the opposite of pajama cardinals and foxfaces, everyone thinks they're beautiful, but they won't thrive in most tanks.

Sharks in general - Making it at the top of the wish list of every frat house that found a 75g on Craigslist, and of every guy that walks in asking "how much that is?", sharks really need to be one of those special orders people need to request, otherwise they end up in tanks that just won't work longterm. I've seen too many bamboo sharks crammed in the 55g tanks of high school students to think that most of these sharks are going to 500g+ sparsely decorated tanks or ponds with the appropriate tank mates.

Baby Clown Tangs - Same as so many on this list, poor survival rate and even if they *do* make it to a decent size, they more often than not prove to be terrors in the aquarium. Many perish even before being sold, so it's beyond me why stores keeping bringing them in. The larger specimens fair much better and can thrive in large enough tanks that don't house competitors that may cause them to "snap".

Vlamingii Tangs - Ever wonder why you constantly see these fish taking up residence in the coral runways at your local fish stores? It's because these personable, puppy like fish grow to a whopping 2 feet long! I'll admit, I had one ('Hudson') in my 120g for a year, but all along I knew he'd be going to a 1,600g reef, so it wasn't something I had to scramble to figure out once he got too big. These are one of the most commonly returned fish IME and so most end up just being tossed in whatever tanks are available, thus the trend of the scuffed up, HLLE ridden vlamingii tanks schooling under the surface as you pick out your next frag. They're wonderful fish, but just be sure you know you'll have somewhere for him to go once he gets too large for your tank. In my reckoning, these fish *should* be available, but just not in the numbers they are currently.

Horseshoe Crabs - Nobody has tanks for these poor guys, and considering their natural lifespan, it's a sad thing to consider their success rate in captivity long term.

... *steps off soap box*... *ahem* ... That is all :bigeyes:
 
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I agree with you, BUT... There are those of us out there that have large enough tanks for these fish. Granted most of us aren't your "novice" hobbiest and have been in the hobby for years with a lot of knowledge. I would place the blame soley on the LFS for being too ignorant to properly inform the novice or new hobbiest to why such fish won't work in their system. This comes down to being a responsible shop owner with well educated employees that simply won't sell fish to hobbiest not able to sustain such species short term and especially for the life of the species. Sharks are at the top of the list you have IMO for being randomly bought and later "discarded" because of ignorance on the hobbiest and shops fault
 
having worked at a LFS and visited wholesale operations in Miami and Massachuttes, i can tell you that 99 out of a 100 fish caught for this hobby do not live past 2 weeks; regardless of the fish. imo, these "save this fish" threads are misguided at best.
 
having worked at a LFS and visited wholesale operations in Miami and Massachuttes, i can tell you that 99 out of a 100 fish caught for this hobby do not live past 2 weeks; regardless of the fish. imo, these "save this fish" threads are misguided at best.

that is so sad
 
having worked at a LFS and visited wholesale operations in Miami and Massachuttes, i can tell you that 99 out of a 100 fish caught for this hobby do not live past 2 weeks; regardless of the fish. imo, these "save this fish" threads are misguided at best.

It's more about creating a more sustainable hobby. When someone buys that little panther grouper and sticks it in their biocube and it inevitably dies, both the fish and the hobbyist loses out. There are so many fish that will prove to be hardy and fascinating, and yet so many shops continue bringing in species that won't last. Lets just take the Dascyllus damsel issue...

Problem - the vast majority of the time the addition of these damsels proves to have been a mistake, due to their extreme aggression, yet people still need "starter" fish to get their feet wet in the hobby and to make sure their tank is running on all cylinders.

Solution - yellowtail damsels, springeri damsels, heck, even blue devil damsels aren't as ruthless as the Dascyllus genus damsels. These damsels are 99% of the time $5-10 ($10 sometimes for the springeri), so same price, yet stay relatively docile and can mingle nicely in peaceful community tanks, making for happy tanks and happy customers who won't either A. flush or release the fish B. destroy their aquascape to catch the fish and return it, in which case the damsels will probably end up in the live rock bin, or C. they give up the hobby all together out of frustration.
 
I agree somewhat. LFS can help but ultimately the responsibility comes down to the consumer. Pure speculation on my part but I would guess a lot of folks get into the hobby on a whim and leave just as fast. These people will buy what they want to buy when they want it. The people that come here or other forums have made a decision to try and become successful aquarist and hopefully they learn about stocking their systems.
 
I agree with you, BUT... There are those of us out there that have large enough tanks for these fish. Granted most of us aren't your "novice" hobbiest and have been in the hobby for years with a lot of knowledge. I would place the blame soley on the LFS for being too ignorant to properly inform the novice or new hobbiest to why such fish won't work in their system. This comes down to being a responsible shop owner with well educated employees that simply won't sell fish to hobbiest not able to sustain such species short term and especially for the life of the species. Sharks are at the top of the list you have IMO for being randomly bought and later "discarded" because of ignorance on the hobbiest and shops fault

True, and I feel some of these species should still be offered, but just at appropriate sizes and in smaller quantities, to reserve them for people who actually have the means to care for them properly. I'm sure there are people out there that build entire tanks around clown triggers or panther groupers and their specific needs (I plan on setting up a massive SPS dominant clown tang species tank one day when I have the room).
 
having worked at a LFS and visited wholesale operations in Miami and Massachuttes, i can tell you that 99 out of a 100 fish caught for this hobby do not live past 2 weeks; regardless of the fish. imo, these "save this fish" threads are misguided at best.

I think your numbers are a bit off.

99 out of 100 die. I highly doubt that.
 
having worked at a LFS and visited wholesale operations in Miami and Massachuttes, i can tell you that 99 out of a 100 fish caught for this hobby do not live past 2 weeks; regardless of the fish. imo, these "save this fish" threads are misguided at best.

If this were true the wholesaler and LFS would be in massive debt or losing tons of money.
I've worked in both fields and this statement is false.
 
STOP Selling These Species! (rant)

It's funny I was thinking of this the other day. I just bought a new tank and was enjoying my fish. When one of my daughters asked me if I thought it was mean that someone kidnapped the fish from their family, and sold them to us? Honestly i never really thought about it that way. I know that is a bit extreme but I wonder what some people do think about our hobby. A good book that was given to me was the Contentious Marine Aquarius ??when I first started. It's a book that I often recommend to people entering the hobby. I see both sides of the argument, but it is sad that a lot of stores don't care about the fish/coral. I can honestly say the stores where I live do care what people buy and put in the tank. Education and self policing is key, and I think forums like this that give out "advice" is a good start. I would never want to see this hobby stopped, but surprised it hasn't had tighter restrictions put on it.

Derek.
 
A few years ago, when I started my first tank, I went to my LFS for information. I think the problem is, when beginners go into a LFS for information, they assume that they know what they are talking about. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. When they don't, the beginner just goes with what they say no matter how wrong it is.

I found a couple people at mine that are actually very good with saltwater and let me know if something is a bad choice AND why. But now I just do my research on here before a livestock purchase. (Thanks for that)
 
A few years ago, when I started my first tank, I went to my LFS for information. I think the problem is, when beginners go into a LFS for information, they assume that they know what they are talking about. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. When they don't, the beginner just goes with what they say no matter how wrong it is.

I found a couple people at mine that are actually very good with saltwater and let me know if something is a bad choice AND why. But now I just do my research on here before a livestock purchase. (Thanks for that)

+1 on too many people blindly following their LFS's advice. Even if your LFS is knowledgeable it IS YOUR responsibility to research the animals you keep. People don't look at fish the same they would a dog or cat, herein lies the major problem.

Specialty animals require special needs, a reef is more complicated and generally more expensive than a dog or cat.
 
This hobby would no longer exist if this those numbers were true

I don't know about that. I've not worked in the industry, so have no personal insights necessarily, but I bet the numbers aren't all that far off. Maybe it's 10% survival after 2 months, for example; but if you think about it I don't think its going to be much better. I do know somebody who used to be a fish collector in Hawaii, and the $ they get for fish is 'criminal' - a tiny fraction of what we see them sell for at LFS. THAT's how you make a high mortality business work economically.
 
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+1 on too many people blindly following their LFS's advice. Even if your LFS is knowledgeable it IS YOUR responsibility to research the animals you keep.

I sort of agree with you, sort of disagree - my own personal experience starting out was I went into an aquarium shop one day and saw marine animals for sale for the first time. I had no idea you could keep them!

I then thought on it for a while and went back to the shop, assuming they would be able to guide me - that is logical yes? Instead I was given false information by the owner of the shop, who encouraged me to buy starfish and sea slugs and told me they would just eat algae off the glass.

That was how I discovered forums, after watching my starfish dying and searching for answers as to why. The owner of that shop and I are still on speaking terms, he no longer lies to me - and I did call him out on lying to me the first time. It shouldn't be that way, but the truth is he took advantage of my ignorance, and only treated me and the animals he sells well when he realised he could no longer do that to make a buck out of me.

Not everyone knows to head straight for the internet to research when they first start out - going to a shop and trusting their advice is the more common thing to do.
 
I think your numbers are a bit off.

99 out of 100 die. I highly doubt that.

He said caught for the hobby, that means some die before they even leave the island they were caught off of, die during transport, die in holding, die at the distributor, die before reaching the lfs, die at the lfs, die in our tanks...

Figure in the wild 99.9999% of fish die before reaching adulthood...


I also disagree with the OP.. But my main argument is most of those species should be special order only... not removed from the hobby. I'm not a fan of those damsels, but i know some people who like them and keep them with the right tank mates...
 
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I think your numbers are a bit off.

99 out of 100 die. I highly doubt that.

If this were true the wholesaler and LFS would be in massive debt or losing tons of money.
I've worked in both fields and this statement is false.

Exactly my thinking on that. This hobby would no longer exist if this those numbers were true

you might not believe it, or hope it, but it is true!!! maybe not 99% mortality but close to it, as no one really knows. fact is, this hobby is very hard on the animals we keep. i know, because i have seen it at the retail, wholesale, importer, and exporter level. most of the fish in this hobby are sold by the lot, not the each; and for pennies...
 
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