STOP Selling These Species! (rant)

[heathlindner25]

I worked at the fish store for a few years and those numbers don't really match up with our stores numbers.

 

[ca1ore]

I worked at the fish store for a few years and those numbers don't really match up with our stores numbers.

I think you're missing the point. OP wasn't (presumably) just talking about the final step in the supply chain through retail, but the entire process back to the point where a fish is first collected. Somewhere in the mid 90's for a total supply chain mortality rate doesn't surprise me in the least. What's the mortality rate in LFS? 20%? Figure that at each step in the chain and things get bad, fast.

Heck, OP didn't even mention those fish that get regularly imported that are almost impossible to keep - Achilles tangs, purple queen anthias, idols ...

 

[anbosu]

I think you're missing the point. OP wasn't (presumably) just talking about the final step in the supply chain through retail, but the entire process back to the point where a fish is first collected. Somewhere in the mid 90's for a total supply chain mortality rate doesn't surprise me in the least. What's the mortality rate in LFS? 20%? Figure that at each step in the chain and things get bad, fast.

Heck, OP didn't even mention those fish that get regularly imported that are almost impossible to keep - Achilles tangs, purple queen anthias, idols ...

I feel like I read somewhere the mortality rate through the supply chain is around 65%. That's not taking into consideration the losses after the fish are purchased, of course.

 

[DopeCantWin]

I made the noobie mistake of buying the Hawaiian Cleaner Wrasse. Got him to eat, but he still didn't make it past a few months. Another fish that 100% has to stay in Hawaii with the sharks.

 

[joshky]

I sort of agree with you, sort of disagree - my own personal experience starting out was I went into an aquarium shop one day and saw marine animals for sale for the first time. I had no idea you could keep them!

I then thought on it for a while and went back to the shop, assuming they would be able to guide me - that is logical yes? Instead I was given false information by the owner of the shop, who encouraged me to buy starfish and sea slugs and told me they would just eat algae off the glass.

That was how I discovered forums, after watching my starfish dying and searching for answers as to why. The owner of that shop and I are still on speaking terms, he no longer lies to me - and I did call him out on lying to me the first time. It shouldn't be that way, but the truth is he took advantage of my ignorance, and only treated me and the animals he sells well when he realised he could no longer do that to make a buck out of me.

Not everyone knows to head straight for the internet to research when they first start out - going to a shop and trusting their advice is the more common thing to do.

I'm too spoiled with the internet, but I'd imagine there's a plethora of literature that is more than helpful on the subject. However I'm not sure how accessible they truly are. I wish LFS's were a reliable source of information but most of them (IME) are only in it to make a quick buck. Unfortunately too many people put too much faith in other people's intelligence (or how trustworthy they are).

Edit: I guess what I may have failed to convey is simply that two opinions are better than one. (especially when money is involved)

 

[PIPSTER]

It's funny I was thinking of this the other day. I just bought a new tank and was enjoying my fish. When one of my daughters asked me if I thought it was mean that someone kidnapped the fish from their family, and sold them to us? Honestly i never really thought about it that way. I know that is a bit extreme but I wonder what some people do think about our hobby....

:rolleye1:
That is a bit extreme. :hammer: I happen to like to eat seafood. Shrimp, Talapia, Crab, Tuna..etc. :eek2:
The consequence for the fish from the LFS dying is just the loss of money in keeping with the intention of the hobby. I didn't know fish had families. I hope you used this as an opportunity to educate your child, and not the other way around. :fish1:

As far as the intention of the hobby, it would help if some LFS would educate people a bit more.

 

[scottyburger]

I propose a certification exam for the hobby, e.g., beginner, advanced, expert. That should keep people from buying things they are not trained to handle. LOL

 

[Dmorty217]

I think you're missing the point. OP wasn't (presumably) just talking about the final step in the supply chain through retail, but the entire process back to the point where a fish is first collected. Somewhere in the mid 90's for a total supply chain mortality rate doesn't surprise me in the least. What's the mortality rate in LFS? 20%? Figure that at each step in the chain and things get bad, fast.

Heck, OP didn't even mention those fish that get regularly imported that are almost impossible to keep - Achilles tangs, purple queen anthias, idols ...

^This... Then you have Ornate,Meyers,Lavartus(most any corallivore for that matter) blue spot sting rays to name a few others near 100% mortality rates. The hobby is exploding with captive bred fish and only continues to grow to make some of these arguments obsolete. You can't change a ill informed newbies minds usually and if the LFS is lacking knowledge (95% are) or only care about the bottom line ($$$) the only way to change the culture is with education on the hobby

 

[heathlindner25]

I understand we are all animal loving creatures,but what would you do without your local fish store...run them all out of business and then where will you be when you need medicine on the spot ,or people to talk to you when you're in a jam.....maybe I'm spoiled here down in Atlanta but we have a lot of great fish stores. just my 2 cents

 

[Spslvr]

When you consider an indonesian collected clown fish is sold to the wholesaler for 50 cents and $3.50 for an emporer angel etc, the profit and loss does stack up even if you loose massive amounts of fish the 30 dollar wholesale on 1 clownfish keeps it viable. These figures are by no means accurate but in the ball park

 

[heathlindner25]

So I guess we shouId all tear our tanks down...let's all eat a steak and think about this...lol

 

[JamesHolt]

I guess I am just really lucky with my Dascyllus genus damsels, I have 4 4-stripes,1 False Percula,1 Yellow tail damsel.. in a 60g frag tank (were in a 40g breeder) they get along fine, no nipping, they have been together for a year,,,just have to feed in several spots.. But I have done that since day one...
But I also hand feed my emerald crabs and shrimp too.. Guess I am just wierd..
BUT I dont have any plans to take the 4-stripes out of the frag tank, and I dont plan to get any more damsels..
I did buy my damsels when I knew next to nothing about saltwater fish, trusted my LFS, but I bought them,so they will get spoiled like all my other critters,,,,,

Not to take from the OP but as long as people are buying(and allowed to buy) these fish someone will be selling them, greed rules supreme,,, mankind as a species is normally an a**hole toward nature,, there are exceptions,, but not enough of them....

 

[mussel and hate]

I was almost in agreement until Dascyllus made the list. Let's see... a hardy fish that grows to a modest size with an easily accommodated diet...

You're saying the risk is aggression or flushing? Maybe the aquarist is the problem, not the species.

 

[ArmyGreens]

Education and communication is key, from local divers to wholesalers to lfs to customers and back. If the lfs tell wholesalers that certain fishes wll be special oreder, the wholesaler will tell the divers not to colllect as many. It just shows that the hobbists and industry need better lines of communication. Not too far from now reefs will be 100% protected and the only species available will be aqua farmed in warehouses

 

[joshky]

Unfortunately we can't really do anything. Try to promote your local clubs and get people interested in the social aspect of reefing, this will help, maybe not much, but small changes do help. Our local club has a poster and business cards at at least one LFS, hopefully other clubs have similar tactics to get people involved.

 

[SoloChromis]

I was almost in agreement until Dascyllus made the list. Let's see... a hardy fish that grows to a modest size with an easily accommodated diet...

You're saying the risk is aggression or flushing? Maybe the aquarist is the problem, not the species.

That's the whole point of this thread, the lack of knowledge people have regarding these specific fish. These damsels CAN be kept, for decades sometimes, without issue, but it really only works when the tank is large enough for them to distribute territory and where their tank mates are robust enough to defend themselves. IME these damsels make up the bulk of the fish people complain about and are returned to the LFS (I don't want to speculate where the others end up)

 

[Mishri]

stop selling specific species because some people don't bother to learn enough about them... like all the other "pets"? Various dogs, cats, birds, reptiles, amphibians, rodents.... hmm... good luck with that. One thing that should help you sleep at night is unlike all the other things people typically keep as pets, fish lay hundreds to thousands of young.... (sharks less)

 

[BFG]

My personal feeling on this topic is that lfs arent the place for a newbie to be educated nor for us to dictate what they, the lfs, should do or dont. It is a business enterprise, profit matter to them and time is valuable. But every reefer need to play a part. Every reefer need to stand up and make themselves count. Make it known to your colleague, your friend, your neighbour or your family that, yes, you are involved and are able to help a newbie to get his/her information correctly. Be a mentor, guide them into this hobby correctly and responsibly.

 

[dcforester1]

:rolleye1:
That is a bit extreme. :hammer: I happen to like to eat seafood. Shrimp, Talapia, Crab, Tuna..etc. :eek2:
The consequence for the fish from the LFS dying is just the loss of money in keeping with the intention of the hobby. I didn't know fish had families. I hope you used this as an opportunity to educate your child, and not the other way around. :fish1:

As far as the intention of the hobby, it would help if some LFS would educate people a bit more.

No I didnt, I sold all my fish, and equipment and then returned them to their families. By the way we are talking a little girl, either you dont have children, or dont remember the "why" stage.

 

[Chevre]

These are some of the reasons i don't support wild caught fish for my aquarium. Given how critical the reefs are i feel its selfish of me to buy a wild fish to put in my tank because its pretty. The amount of die off through all the stages from ocean to my tank is staggering. The hobby is massive worldwide and it very much feels counter productive killing these animals. Only captive bred for me.