STOP Selling These Species! (rant)

I need to make a couple points here because I believe there is some bad information being thrown around.

First, the "99 out of 100 fish die" statement. Actually 100% of fish die, but I'll get to that in a second. I am not aware of a solid study of the mortality rate of collected aquarium fish... I'm talking an UNBAISED "RECENT" STUDY that followed the chain of custody of fish on several shipments from collection to hobbyist and used statisticians to reasonably determine the true average mortality rate. The 99 out of 100 was a number pushed by Snorkel Bob of the Sea Sheppard who is 100% against anything leaving the ocean for humans. He often lies and twists facts to push his agenda. He's also not alone. The recent debacle with the Centers for Biological Diversity requesting the NOAA place 66 coral species under protection from the ESA with absolutely zero science to back up their request is another prime example of a group of people who believe nothing should leave the ocean. Of course now the list is down to 20, yet still without any science. So, until someone can provide the unbiased study nobody knows and everything else is conjecture.

Also, some fish can live up to 20 years while others only live a year or so. For example, the common Neon goby lives less than 2 years, probably less than 1, in my experience. So species would also need to be taken into consideration. There's also another fact that must be taken into consideration and that is the health of the fish that were collected. Contrary to popular belief, many fish succumb to disease and parasites in the wild and therefore would have died regardless if collected or not. Furthermore, from a financial viability standpoint, 99 out of 100 is likely not a sustainable business model. So again I question that number. Some argue that number includes post sale and under the hobbyist possession, but I find it unlikely anyone can put a solid number on that without putting in a lot of effort and work. I recently purchased 20 fish and they were put through a 6 week qt with copper and prazipro and only 2 fish died. That's a 90% survival rate. Of course I'm not a novice either. But overall, if you average out the novice to experienced hobbyist my guess is a lot of fish do actually survive for a period of time that I would describe as successful. Which leads me to my next point and back to my 100% of all fish die.

Well actually 100% of everything alive, dies, including you. Ahh, see what I'm doing here :) .... Not everything has the luxury of living a full life and dying of old age, especially in the ocean. Everything in the ocean has a predator. Even those at the top of the food chain have predators. My point is this, if 100 baby Blue Hippo Tangs are collected for the aquarium trade and 10 of them survive in captivity to live complete full lives, that is likely a better survival rate than in the wild as probably only 1 out of 100 would avoid being preyed upon or falling victim to disease or parasites. These numbers of course are all made up, but I think you get my point.

Now as far as choosing livestock wisely, I couldn't agree more. It is morally wrong to put a pet fish in the wrong environment and the Blue Hippo Tang is likely at the top of the list. Some would argue, the aquarium trade is not moral to begin with and I, as well as you probably disagree. What's the difference in me keeping a Blue Hippo Tang in the right environment for 20 years vs. me catching an adult Blue Hippo Tang and eating it? Nothing. Either action is perfectly acceptable in my opinion. I'm sure Snorkel Bob and his crony friends are typical just like many people in this world, especially those with power, "Do as I say, not as I do!"
 
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I would have to agree that we are overthinking this. This hobby is about entertainment and the personal satisfaction of trying to replicate a natural environment.

In college my friends got a live lobster from Albertsons and stuffed it in a 29g (aka Noodles the Lobster). I had a spare chiller laying around so I hooked it up for them (having to explain that they preffered cool water). Needless to say that thing lived for about 3 years off goldfish and other stuff. While I did feel a bit bad about having a large lobster stuffed in a small tank it still lived significantly longer if it had remained at the store. It also provided us countless hours of entertainment (attacking drunk friends who were passed out on the couch ect.) which at the end of the day that's what this hobby is for.

Lets not delude ourselves into thinking we are providing a good habitat for these species. The quality of life in our tanks is probably less then of that of the oceans even if it may be shorter in nature due to predators.

PS I miss you Noodles. He was such a cool pet.
 
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having worked at a LFS and visited wholesale operations in Miami and Massachuttes, i can tell you that 99 out of a 100 fish caught for this hobby do not live past 2 weeks; regardless of the fish. imo, these "save this fish" threads are misguided at best.

Not true, having worked in the trade I can say you are wrong. not even close to accurate .

You tend to get two type of people who get in the hobby, Type 1 is the one goes to LFS and buys what they are told and spend all kinds of money and lose fish spends a bunch more then get out of the hobby. The movie finding Nemo made this even worst.


Type two is one that gets into it, loves it and does and stays in the hobby for years or life for that matter. They research and do what they can to improve the environment for their fish and corals.
 
Lets not delude ourselves into thinking we are providing a good habitat for these species. The quality of life in our tanks is probably less then of that of the oceans even if it may be shorter in nature due to predators.

PS I miss you Noodles. He was such a cool pet.

That's an asinine statement...how to you justify stating you truly believe we are deluding ourselves in thinking we are providing a good habitat for these critters?
 
I maintain a damsel tank and like the dascyllus. [Should have my head examined since I have 2.] I don't have any particular trouble, on the other hand, since they keep each other busy, and particularly the golden domino is quite pretty. Their behavior is that of the red clowns, very similar tricks, very similar attitude. I don't recommend a dascyllus or a maroon or cinnamon clown pair for anybody who doesn't have a pretty large tank and a willingness to putty down their corals.
 
If your not trying to provide a good habitat for the species in your tank, then your in the wrong hobby. This argument will always be. Some of us aren't equipped to care for any pet be that a dog,cat, or fish.
 
I always try to ask people what kind of tank they have when they inquire or order from us...

If I see anything that stands out as a showstopper I'll tell them.

Another species is the Hawaiian Cleaner Wrasse. Although I want to really try one personally, you can't really even get them... mostly since collectors and wholesalers choose not to collect/order them, which is great :)
 
If your not trying to provide a good habitat for the species in your tank, then your in the wrong hobby. This argument will always be. Some of us aren't equipped to care for any pet be that a dog,cat, or fish.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Dogs and cats have been domesticated for hundreds of years while we are actively and currently taking fish from their habitats for our hobby. It's not the same thing. I would say birds and lizards are in the same boat as fish. Do you think a bird cage is the same as flying around from tree to tree and being able to truly roam? Keeping pets in a cage or tank is barely replicating their natural environment at best.
 
I think most people are forgetting something. We enjoy a worldwide hobby. There are millions of people who enjoy keeping saltwater fish. However very few species can actually breed in our systems. Even if the die off isn't 90% but 50% were still taking hundreds of millions of fish out of the water for our amusement. These fish have survived the odds to make it to adulthood and will not be able to reproduce. We've essentially established ourselves as top predators on the reef. It doesn't matter how long these fish live in our systems if they cannot breed. I think were turning a blind eye and are pointing fingers at more destructive means but as hobbyists we still have an impact on the whole ecosystem. If the reefs weren't in a massive decline as a whole it would be a different story but unfortunately that is not the case.
 
People have been the top predator on land and in the sea for quite some time now and I really don't see that changing for quite some time. I enjoy my tank and provide the best habitat I can for my critters. I do not lose sleep or get stressed out thinking about if they would be better off in the sea or my tank.

Someday maybe the powers that be will ban fish collections until then I will continue to purchase fish.
 
My fish told me they love their tank and they also said they appreciate the free food they didn't have to work for to survive.
 
I see a new reality show "The real tang wives of coral imports."

Oh god... my wife would be the first to watch it :((((

Purple and Tomini didn't make season 2 :(

Gem, Zebra, Achilles and Hybrid Achilles might be on season 3 with mainstays Black, Yellow, Chevron and YB Blue. YB Blue is the main diva...
 
Thought our Crosshatches would be the Tang Police... ended up being put in their place by the Yellow Bellied Devil...
 
No I didnt, I sold all my fish, and equipment and then returned them to their families. By the way we are talking a little girl, either you dont have children, or dont remember the "why" stage.

Maybe you misunderstood my post. Of course I have kids (3), and get why questions all the time, but I don't tell them fish have "families".

~Chevrefils~ I think most people are forgetting something. We enjoy a worldwide hobby. There are millions of people who enjoy keeping saltwater fish. However very few species can actually breed in our systems. Even if the die off isn't 90% but 50% were still taking hundreds of millions of fish out of the water for our amusement. These fish have survived the odds to make it to adulthood and will not be able to reproduce. We've essentially established ourselves as top predators on the reef. It doesn't matter how long these fish live in our systems if they cannot breed. I think were turning a blind eye and are pointing fingers at more destructive means but as hobbyists we still have an impact on the whole ecosystem. If the reefs weren't in a massive decline as a whole it would be a different story but unfortunately that is not the case.

I don't think there's anything even slightly destructive about our hobby taking fish or coral out of the oceans. We are by no means the top predators. Geez, there's only 7 billion of us, and 70 trillion of them. :eek:
Really, 7 billion sharks eating tons of blue hippos everyday. :spin2:

I think the point of this thread was about lack of education, particularly about difficult-to-keep species as it relates to our hobby at some LFS...not a springboard for pathiests.
 
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