The BB movement

[MiddletonMark]

Greg, I can't answer for him.

But I know that when I went BB, it became quickly apparent that the skimmer I thought was `good enough' wasn't. I had

I'm not willing to say BB was the sum improvement, and to blame all my success since on it. IMO, it's like when folks go to z method or others - often the equipment and husbandry changes are significant - and perhaps the same dedication + upgrades would have had the substrate [etc] tank running much better.

But that's my opinion

 

[solbby]

Anyway, my point is I think it is time for you all to move on already!

There is so much more to learn and understand in the hobby than such superficial topics.

 

[MiddletonMark]

I agree, but when folks start talking - I tend to join in.

Thanks for the links, Sollby ... give me a few days, I'll be ready to talk about it :reading:

 

[solbby]

I have many more where that came from. The academic literature is so full of valuable jewels!!!!!!!!!!!! if only people would take the time........ .

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7061826#post7061826 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MiddletonMark
Greg, I can't answer for him.

But I know that when I went BB, it became quickly apparent that the skimmer I thought was `good enough' wasn't. I had

I'm not willing to say BB was the sum improvement, and to blame all my success since on it. IMO, it's like when folks go to z method or others - often the equipment and husbandry changes are significant - and perhaps the same dedication + upgrades would have had the substrate [etc] tank running much better.

But that's my opinion

Mark, I think thats one of the major problems going on. People seem to think its okay to skimp on their skimmer if they run a DSB, and thats total crap. IMO, every tank would do better with a big skimmer.

 

[thefuture]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7061678#post7061678 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by solbby
I'm surprised that this debate is still raging on (what a waste of time?). Everything that could possibly be said has been already.

Why not discuss something more interesting like how zoox and the coral host are unable to grow without each other.

http://www.jstor.org/view/09628436/ap000103/00a00040/0

that sounds interesting. you should start a thread on it. i think the advanced forum would love to have it there

 

[gcarroll]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7061961#post7061961 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Mark, I think thats one of the major problems going on. People seem to think its okay to skimp on their skimmer if they run a DSB, and thats total crap. IMO, every tank would do better with a big skimmer.

Exactly the point I was trying to get to. It seems that the first thing people do when going bare bottom is upgrade the skimmer. But that is something that some would never consider when having problems with the sand bed. I just think sand gets a bad rap. I do however think that tanks can be successful whether using BB, SSB, DSB, or plenum.

 

[Froggy]

gcarroll, I think you are really onto something with that point. I began having problems in my 75 gallon reef that was estabished for over 3 years. I began having some turf algae issues, growth and coloraton went south on my SPS and I even lost a couple of pieces to an RTN event. I did not have Cyano, however. I run a sand bed in my tank since it was established that ranges from 1" to 3 ". I began researching Reefcentral for help and ALMOST broke the tank down to cook the rock and go barebottom. Instead I did four things that has dramatically increased the health of my reef.

1. I greatly increased my skimmer from an underpowered Remora to a Euroreef CS 6-1.

2. I increased my water movement in the tank to approximately 39 X overall turnover.

3. I improved my lighting scheme by switching to 10 K halides instead of 14 K halides as I use 175 watters / VHO's / and PC's for lighting.

4. I LEFT THE SAND ALONE !!!

I have since seen a great improvement in my tanks health. SPS are growing at a solid rate and are coloring up again ( Reds, pinks, blues etc ). The algae issues are also going away and my tank is nearly algae free now.

So, I agree that sand gets a bad wrap on some tank problems. My problem was inadequate flow throughout the tank, inadequate nutrient export and 3rd a slight lighting PAR increase was needed. There are many successful means to running a reef tank. All of the methods require them to be run properly or they will fail no matter what method you choose.

Joe

 

[jsweir]

The BEST reason to go BB:

The method is endorsed by Mr. Clean!

Mr. Clean makes rid of detrius and nitrite
And nutrients in just a minute
Mr. Clean will clean your aquarium
And everything that's in it
Mr. Clean, Mr. Clean, Mr. Clean

 

[gcarroll]

After reading my above post I think JMBoehling is avoiding the question. What I think that people should know is just how important a good skimmer is to a successful sps tank. I don't have a DSB so I don't know about them, but I think that a shallow sand bed can be just as successful as a bare bottom with all things being equal. Especially if the the same time is dedicated to the husbandry

 

[Dag]

How do you manage to keep Chaeto alive? Everytime I try it fades away within about 3 weeks....

I used to have the same problem. Now I keep mine in my overflow box, and it grows fine.

 

[JMBoehling]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7065253#post7065253 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gcarroll
After reading my above post I think JMBoehling is avoiding the question. What I think that people should know is just how important a good skimmer is to a successful sps tank. I don't have a DSB so I don't know about them, but I think that a shallow sand bed can be just as successful as a bare bottom with all things being equal. Especially if the the same time is dedicated to the husbandry

Her's a copy of a post from August 2005. I purchased my Deltec in July

08/18/2005 06:31 PM

JMBoehling
BB's Stay Cleaner!

Registered: Apr 2005
Location: Richmond, VA
Occupation: Sales Engineer
Posts: 726



Update:

One month after dumping my DSB in my Fuge and stripping my display of all substrate here are my findings:

Nitrates measured 0 (or really close ) I have NEVER measured 0! (High as 80 lowest 15 to 20 ppm)

PH 8.3

KH 11

Calcium 420 ish

Salinity 1.026

Bare bottom with my new Deltec skimmer is making a huge difference in the overall appearance and health of my tank... I love the way my refugium acts as a Detris trap... Really simple water changes...

Just sharing my apparent success with this "Bare Bottom" concept.

No more changes, I'm sticking with this hand, I think it's a winner! ALL IN

Jim

Hobby Experience: 24 Year Fish Only 2 years reef
Current Tanks: 90 Gallon AGA, Bare Bottom, (02) 10" Skylights, Deltec AP600 Skimmer, 216 Watts T5 (2x 11k & 2x Blue+) Supplemental Light
Interests: Family, Fishing, Relaxing


Later,

Jim

 

[JMBoehling]

Now, you would say.. Your new skimmer is doing it. Well I agree the Deltec AP600 works great, but it is not keeping my overall water column stable, i.e PH, Alk, and Calcium..


Around the same time I started a reef up for my Cousin with my Old "Mod'd" Seclone 100. He also runs Barebottom, Fuge with Chaeto and his reef is rocking.

Here is a pic

I am not certain that the skimmer can get all the credit for BB's. Aren't Seaclones supposed to suck!

Here is a pic of our new BB frag tank with an Excaliber skimmer doing the work.

I have often heard Excaliber skimmers stink as well

 

[JMBoehling]

Some other pics of the Frag tank protected by Excaliber, BB, Mrs. Waqes and Chaeto

Later,

"Fadboy" and BS'er

 

[SunnyX]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7062358#post7062358 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gcarroll
Exactly the point I was trying to get to. It seems that the first thing people do when going bare bottom is upgrade the skimmer. But that is something that some would never consider when having problems with the sand bed. I just think sand gets a bad rap. I do however think that tanks can be successful whether using BB, SSB, DSB, or plenum.

My thoughts exactly. :thumbsup:

 

[RichConley]

JMB, so you did upgrade the skimmer.

THere are some advantages and disadvantages to BB, but its tough to use a tank as an example when you make a huge change like that.

 

[JMBoehling]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7067323#post7067323 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
JMB, so you did upgrade the skimmer.

THere are some advantages and disadvantages to BB, but its tough to use a tank as an example when you make a huge change like that.

New that was coming

I did indeed upgrade my Skimmer, but before I dumped my sand. When I still was having nutrient issues after spending $600 on a "Wonder Cure" I decided to dump my DSB in my Fuge and SSB in my Display. That turned things around, in addtion to fluidizing ROWAphos.

My point of showing my cousins tank is that I put my "Underpowered Skimmer" on his reef and it has worked beautifully.

I also agree that Foam Fractioning is absolutley critical to have a healthy SPS reef tank. Can it be done without a skimmer? YES... The big advantage I have seen, as I have mentioned before, is that the removal of sand does not allow any Detris to settle and rot in your tank, and use up precious Calcium and Alk.

A local guy I purchased my first frags from made me extremely envious. He had a 220 with HUGE colonies, a DSB and remote DSB FUGE (Mangroves, Caulerpa, Chaeto, etc) Well he has recently battled a HUGE phosphate issue, and lost many gorgeous colonies. That scared the He!! out of me. He also has a Deltec Skimmer, Kalk Stirrer, CO2 Unit, Fluidized ROWA, 4 (400 Watt Halides) and couldn't keep up with the Bioload of his tank. 4 years of growth down the drain.

I have visited MANY local RRC members homes, and viewed their Reefs. Not one tank has the exact same setup, everyone does something just a little bit different. There are many paths to take, some are easier, some less traveled, some have expensive toll booths, but in the end they can all take you to the final destiny of a beatiful Reef Tank. Now it is up to you to decide which path to take! I've decided on mine, and I am closing in on the finish line

Peace!

Jim

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7067460#post7067460 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JMBoehling
New that was coming

I did indeed upgrade my Skimmer, but before I dumped my sand. When I still was having nutrient issues after spending $600 on a "Wonder Cure" I decided to dump my DSB in my Fuge and SSB in my Display. That turned things around, in addtion to fluidizing ROWAphos.

That was something I was trying to point out, in a DSB, a skimmer can't necessarily fix the problem, but it can prevent it from happening. Once your sand bed is a mess, the skimmer can't do anything about it.

 

[MiddletonMark]

And IMO, that's one of the few benefits to a BB that many folks [without] miss.

In two hours with a siphon hose and replacement water ... I can take the tank to essentially as clean as when I just set it up.

IME, with even a shallow bed - you never could vacuum every last inch + time-wise it took a lot longer to work with than BB. Just my experience - but IMO serious maintenance on a BB is a couple hours to do `everything' - which sure seems faster than when I had a SSB.

 

[jay24k]

Well adding a skimmer isn't going to make the tank better overnight or even within a week. I'm happy your tank is doing well with BB and that is good however because you failed at DSB doesn't mean it is bad. You just weren't able to keep one successfully. I think looking at the majority of DSB tanks, if it didn't work, we would see it. The same goes with BB. If it didn't work, we would see it.

I think we need to agree both methods work and both require different things.

I know alot of the big BB advocates say Chaeto in a BB enviroment is a no no and if it is truely working as a BB enviroment it would not grow at all.