The most AMAZING buy today...a 1.5" Conspicillatus Angel!!!

[jnc914]

It didn't make sense to me at the time, but after speaking with Koji at Blue Harbor, he advocates putting all new arrivals in brand new saltwater. I always thought putting a fish in mature water was more beneficial, which common sense would lead you to believe.

But now that I think about it, it makes so much more sense to put a new fish in new water. It allows the fish time to build back their slime coat and protects them from any pathogens/contaminates from mature water.

:thumbsup:

Take it from someone that definitely knows about handling delicate high end fish...Koji knows his stuff. I will typically do a large 75-80% water change after a fish is moved out of QT or right before I am about to put something new in it. It has worked for me so far...Full disclosure, I also run a large skimmer and over sized UV when not medicating, siphon excess food and waste daily.

 

[Terra Ferma]

Wayne I mean no disrespect. I hate loosing fish. especially rare expensive and beautiful fish like the baby cons pic.

Just curious why no QT? I have met reefers who used to QT and stopped QT, I have also met reefers who never QT and started after having a bad experience.

I am just curious as to why you dont consider QTing each and every fish prior to putting it into the reef.

Do you use a UV?

I'm a huge fan of QT but very small delicate fish often tend to not do well in QT. all you can really do is put them in a good home (refugium is perfect) and hope they get their legs and maybe great them when they are a little more durable.

 

[Mrscribbled]

The principles of running QT, and the ultimate goal of it, is to alleviate stress on the fish while it acclimates to captive life in a new environment. A QT also allows the fish to be observed closely, in a smaller environment, for further stress or disease; and allows you to treat as need be. In addition, the new fish doesn't have to compete with tankmates for food. With that being said, everything that I have read within the past several posts is completely contradictory to the goal of getting this delicate 1.5" angel to safely acclimate and ultimately thrive once introduced to the main display.

By adding the fish directly to a main display, or even to the refuge, because you deemed that it was too delicate or small for QT, or it appeared to be healthy, may or may not have directly lead to it perishing. You mention it was added to your refuge, but that is still a stressful new environment for that fish. Even if a fish appears to not be harrassed, or it doesn't looked stressed when added to the display/refuge, you can not guarantee that the fish is not still experiencing some level of stress that may have caused it not to eat, or to have lowered its immunity, making it succeptable to disease.

Wayne- Your logic of "I figure if they die in that kind of environment, they'd most likely die in a qt'd medicated tank too" is a faulty one. Bottom line is if you have previously lost fish in a QT, and this is why you have opted to forgo it now on a $$$ high end fish , you may need to re-evaluate why QT has not worked for you. Was the QT not mature enough, was the fish not healthy upon initially receiving it, did you medicate it too quickly or before it had enough time to settle in the QT, did you keep up with water parameters, etc. You obviously have the means to have a pretty serious QT if you wanted. A Conspic that size doesn't come around that often, it is a shame to have lost it when it could have possibly been avoided by properly QT'ing.


I apologize for being preachy. I have learned the hard way over the last 12 years in this hobby that QT is very important for the long term health of your tank. I opted to not QT a delicate Regal Angel back in 2006. It had velvet and wiped out almost my entire tank. I have been running the same QT set up since and the only fish I have lost recently were ones that came in and were visibly sick, malnourished, or infested with parasites and had no chance of survival anyway.

+1x100

 

[Mrscribbled]

I'm a huge fan of QT but very small delicate fish often tend to not do well in QT. all you can really do is put them in a good home (refugium is perfect) and hope they get their legs and maybe great them when they are a little more durable.

The fish had no chance being placed in a closed system without prior quarantined livestock. It would be a different situation if she was placed in a pest free established grow-out tank with her as the only fish and once well acclimated go through a strict quarantine then placed into a clean display.

 

[ca1ore]

so true....

I kind of go about it the same way [except the type of fish] and when I have a new arrival in the "new arrival tank" I install a UV on its drain ... that way I am sure 99.99% that no disease will make it to my display tank. if fish dies, I then drain the tank and fill up again with new water. its a 30 G so the amount of my water change anyways.

I actually used to do the same thing. Though a UV will not remove parasites fully from a display, when used on the drain from one tank to another it does much better. Unfortunately, in my case, it failed me one time and I got ich across the entires system - my fault, timely bulb replacement failure, but still ....

I now run a fully separate 30 gallon with live rock, skimmer, UV, etc. as an intro tank for all new fish, and inverts. Actually has a better population of pods than my main DT (also grows chaeto, which my DT will not), so is ideal for new and sensitive fish. If treatment is required a HT is at my diposal.

 

[wayne in norway]

The latter two hit the nail on the head. QT does not need to mean sterile tank - it just needs to be separate.

Recently I have seen a lot of very, very small fish enter the trade - sub 1 inch regals and flames. All these fish do it eat, and most of that is grazing substrate and rarely eating prepared foods. For these fish a qt tank might have a lot of rather hairy rock and a lot of pods to snack on. We could deal with the prepared food bits in a month or so when the fish is twice the size. In a sterile SPS tank these fish have no chance

Losing fish is no fun and not why we're in the hobby. Although it shouldn't, losing special fish hurts a little bit more

 

[RxMike]

Qt

Qt

Take it from someone that definitely knows about handling delicate high end fish...Koji knows his stuff. I will typically do a large 75-80% water change after a fish is moved out of QT or right before I am about to put something new in it. It has worked for me so far...Full disclosure, I also run a large skimmer and over sized UV when not medicating, siphon excess food and waste daily.


JNC u run a UV on the DT tank?

 

[jnc914]

Take it from someone that definitely knows about handling delicate high end fish...Koji knows his stuff. I will typically do a large 75-80% water change after a fish is moved out of QT or right before I am about to put something new in it. It has worked for me so far...Full disclosure, I also run a large skimmer and over sized UV when not medicating, siphon excess food and waste daily.


JNC u run a UV on the DT tank?

Yep, 97 watts inline as a preventative. But, I do so with the understanding that UV is not the end all be all for disease and parasite control. I also run Ozone and I used to run a bare bottom tank (just recently added some sand for my wrasse). All that plus a very strict QT regimen has prevented loss in the main display. My recent losses were due to an online vendor sending me visibly sick and malnourished fish that had a very low chance of survival. Since then, I have been getting a majority of my livestock from Liveaquaria and Diver's Den. They have done great in my QT system with zero fish loss.

 

[mikegonzo]

Wayne...sorry hear of your loss (followed thread to the end), but serious congrats on acquiring such a divine specimen and sacking up to put out the $ and give it a run. Any word on any other small individuals swimming around?

 

[Blue Ring Sting]

Sorry to hear about your loss Wayne. At the end of the day it is a lesson well learnt. We all go through it and it makes us wiser on the next purchase. Just stay positive, I know a set back like this can make you feel like, whats the point but who knows you may get another beaut like this.

 

[WayneL333]

The principles of running QT, and the ultimate goal of it, is to alleviate stress on the fish while it acclimates to captive life in a new environment. A QT also allows the fish to be observed closely, in a smaller environment, for further stress or disease; and allows you to treat as need be. In addition, the new fish doesn't have to compete with tankmates for food. With that being said, everything that I have read within the past several posts is completely contradictory to the goal of getting this delicate 1.5" angel to safely acclimate and ultimately thrive once introduced to the main display.

By adding the fish directly to a main display, or even to the refuge, because you deemed that it was too delicate or small for QT, or it appeared to be healthy, may or may not have directly lead to it perishing. You mention it was added to your refuge, but that is still a stressful new environment for that fish. Even if a fish appears to not be harrassed, or it doesn't looked stressed when added to the display/refuge, you can not guarantee that the fish is not still experiencing some level of stress that may have caused it not to eat, or to have lowered its immunity, making it succeptable to disease.

Wayne- Your logic of "I figure if they die in that kind of environment, they'd most likely die in a qt'd medicated tank too" is a faulty one. Bottom line is if you have previously lost fish in a QT, and this is why you have opted to forgo it now on a $$$ high end fish , you may need to re-evaluate why QT has not worked for you. Was the QT not mature enough, was the fish not healthy upon initially receiving it, did you medicate it too quickly or before it had enough time to settle in the QT, did you keep up with water parameters, etc. You obviously have the means to have a pretty serious QT if you wanted. A Conspic that size doesn't come around that often, it is a shame to have lost it when it could have possibly been avoided by properly QT'ing.


I apologize for being preachy. I have learned the hard way over the last 12 years in this hobby that QT is very important for the long term health of your tank. I opted to not QT a delicate Regal Angel back in 2006. It had velvet and wiped out almost my entire tank. I have been running the same QT set up since and the only fish I have lost recently were ones that came in and were visibly sick, malnourished, or infested with parasites and had no chance of survival anyway.

Jason, thank you for your post and although I do think your reply does come off more preachy than constructive, my point is not to argue nor defend the merits of my methods. I think a lot can be misconstrued through the written word, but I do think you make a lot of assumption regarding my pervious experiences and my system.

To give you a little more insight to my system, I have over 400lb. of live rock within my display tank, sump and refugium. In addition, I have a 6” dsb in my dt. I can only imagine how much beneficial bacterial I have bound to all that surface area in addition to all the pods and larval food flourishing in my tank and refugium. This current system has also been running continuously healthy for over 3 years and I’ve never experienced an ich or any other disease outbreak during that time. My tank is mainly populated by SPS and thus very stable and consistent to be able to grow almost every colony within my tank from frags ranging from a quarter inch to around an inch.

While I agree with you that reducing and eliminating stress to a new fish as soon as possible will greatly benefit that fish. There is no way you can convince me that my system environment is more stressful to a new fish than a bare bottom medicated QT tank, with a sponge filter, and newly made sw with a couple of PVC pipes in it.

There are many other points I’d like to make regarding your post, but truthfully I don’t want to use my precious time to do so because it quite evident we are both set in our ways.

 

[WayneL333]

How do you know that you are not exposing the new fish to an existing pathogen or parasite that is already living in the tank? The existing fish in the display may have built an immunity to it, but the new fish has not. If you QT all fish/corals/anything wet to begin with, you have less of a chance of having to deal with these issues.

Wayne hasn't been QT'ing. So there may have been dormant parasites/pathogens already in his display that attacked the stressed Conspic...

Also, UV has proven to not be "99.9%" effective in many a tank, just check out the disease forum.

So what is a "100%" effective? Certainly not QT'ing. You think the 3 or 4 or whatever the QT meds you use kills 100% of all the existing pathogen or parasite within the ocean? In addition, even if UV is 99.99% effective in destroying water born pathogens, that's pretty darn good in my book.

 

[WayneL333]

It didn't make sense to me at the time, but after speaking with Koji at Blue Harbor, he advocates putting all new arrivals in brand new saltwater. I always thought putting a fish in mature water was more beneficial, which common sense would lead you to believe.

But now that I think about it, it makes so much more sense to put a new fish in new water. It allows the fish time to build back their slime coat and protects them from any pathogens/contaminates from mature water.

The point I'd like to make is that unlike Koji who is constantly introducing dozens of new fish into his closed system, I rarely do. I really believe that getting a new fish at ease and unstressed as soon as possible, thus not compromising or reducing it's immune system is more natural and effective than to potentially unnecessarily exposing a new fish to a medicated tank with compounds that may prove more detrimental and stressful for a new fish than any benefits it can receive from it. Since I do run UV and rarely introduce new fish and rarely lose the fish I do introduce to it, I can't imagine that my tank is a cesspool of pathogens.

 

[WayneL333]

Thank you to everyone else for your kind words. As I said before, my point is not argue that my methods or opinions are right and everyone else's are wrong. I'm sure everyone here has had their fair share of painful losses and the methods and protocols we use today are a direct result from those learning experiences.

 

[Tactics]

The point I'd like to make is that unlike Koji who is constantly introducing dozens of new fish into his closed system, I rarely do. I really believe that getting a new fish at ease and unstressed as soon as possible, thus not compromising or reducing it's immune system is more natural and effective than to potentially unnecessarily exposing a new fish to a medicated tank with compounds that may prove more detrimental and stressful for a new fish than any benefits it can receive from it. Since I do run UV and rarely introduce new fish and rarely lose the fish I do introduce to it, I can't imagine that my tank is a cesspool of pathogens.

Wayne, the information I posted was just information I picked up during my travels. I'm just passing it on to those that might find it useful.

I think there's a little miscommunication here though. I don't think new fish should go right into a "medicated" QT tank, just one with freshly made saltwater for observation, etc.

Just like there are multiple roads to a final destination, I think it's important we read and ruminate over the ideas that have been posed.

I'm sorry for the loss of the baby conspic but I think your experience, however sad it is, has been impactful to this community. Many people are rethinking and reevaluating how they do things. Thanks for taking the chance and opening up the discussion.

 

[mikegonzo]

Wayne...pay no attention to all this nonsense...lot of people talk to people and post opinions, but that's what they do..talk and issue opinions...few have the guts to pony up the $s for these fish and deal with the emotional stress of taking care of tough, delicate species that account for %s of peoples income. Keep up the passion!

 

[SDguy]

Wayne...pay no attention to all this nonsense...lot of people talk to people and post opinions, but that's what they do..talk and issue opinions...few have the guts to pony up the $s for these fish and deal with the emotional stress of taking care of tough, delicate species that account for %s of peoples income. Keep up the passion!

All posts and thoughts expressed in this thread have been polite and constructive IMO. Your post implying that some of us don't walk the walk because we don't do it with fish that cost thousands of dollars is insulting.

 

[Eville]

I agree SDguy. I think we should take the time to realize that there have been many methods of success in this situation and they should all be taken into consideration. It's not like Wayne is uneducated nor are the people who use other ways of introducing fish.

Jacob

 

[jnc914]

Wayne...pay no attention to all this nonsense...lot of people talk to people and post opinions, but that's what they do..talk and issue opinions...few have the guts to pony up the $s for these fish and deal with the emotional stress of taking care of tough, delicate species that account for %s of peoples income. Keep up the passion!

:facepalm:

I don't even know where to start regarding your ridiculous rationale. In addition, I made my posts based on 12 years of experience of keeping delicate fish, not to trash Wayne. So because I didn't pay several thousand dollars for this rare fish, then my experience is to be immediately discounted?




Wayne- I can't be any more constructive than my post stating that you should invest in a proper QT system. The bottom line is it comes down QT VS. not QT'ing; and how much a person is willing to lose to not run a proper QT system. Again, I am sorry for your loss of this unique fish, but its death could have possibly been prevented. And by proper QT system, it is not a temporary hospital tank set up like the one you mentioned above (sponge filter, no rock or sand , with newly mixed saltwater etc). There is a difference between running a mature, stable, and clean QT than dumping a new fish is a sterile hospital tank, or dumping a new fish in a quiet refuge where it is still be exposed to existing pathogens and parasites. If your system is so stable, and your methods have successfully worked in the past, so be it. It has really nothing to do with your ability to grow coral in your system. You do have to ask then why is this current fish dead? Did it come in with parasites, or was it exposed to parasites upon being put in your fuge? Every fish is different as to how they react to a new environment; why not level the playing field by QT'ing everything going into your display, and ensuring they are completely healthy and parasite free before they enter the main display? It sounds ridiculous, but it can be done with some due dilligence.

As for the use of the UV, you do realize for it to be 99.9% effective, that all the parasites must pass through it. Ich not only lives on the fish and in the fish's gills, it dwells in the sand and rock. So a certain percentage of parasites are never going to pass through the UV...It will only make existing populations of parasites more manageable amongst a tank full of healthy fish.

 

[jnc914]

So what is a "100%" effective? Certainly not QT'ing. You think the 3 or 4 or whatever the QT meds you use kills 100% of all the existing pathogen or parasite within the ocean? In addition, even if UV is 99.99% effective in destroying water born pathogens, that's pretty darn good in my book.

I don't necessarily agree with this rationale. Pathogens and parasites are 2 different things. Also, there are meds and methods, when done correctly, that have the ability to eliminate most if not all parasites on infected fish. We shall agree to disagree on the topic of QT. Good luck with your future fish acquisitions.