You have taken a quote out of context and utilized it for your own argument. SECORE might disagree with you on some of your argument.
http://www.secore.org/
http://www.secore.org/
The Reef is Dying - Almost Everywhere
- Thread starter vickiNaz
- Start date
dead beat reef
New member
It is up to us. No need to buy liverock or corals from
the ocean at all. Cure your own rock. Frag corals.
Save the reefs. If there is no demand there is no
need. Keep low $ easy fish. As soon as it is not
worth a buck. No collection of rare fish.
If we want change it starts with us. dbr
the ocean at all. Cure your own rock. Frag corals.
Save the reefs. If there is no demand there is no
need. Keep low $ easy fish. As soon as it is not
worth a buck. No collection of rare fish.
If we want change it starts with us. dbr
JohnM99
Premium Member
Two questions
1. Where are the "least ruined" reefs right now? ie least affected by environmental and human damage? Micronesia? Coral Sea? Other?
2. WaterssretaW - do you have any good references to the geologic history of reefs you mention, in an overview fashion? (doing google searches on paleogene and reefs etc gives me a bunch of very detailed scientific papers that are way over my head)
1. Where are the "least ruined" reefs right now? ie least affected by environmental and human damage? Micronesia? Coral Sea? Other?
2. WaterssretaW - do you have any good references to the geologic history of reefs you mention, in an overview fashion? (doing google searches on paleogene and reefs etc gives me a bunch of very detailed scientific papers that are way over my head)
danreefman
New member
I always wonder if everyone quits the hobby that would probably be alot less waist from electricity at least. Although I am also on Ross's side on the fact that if we have the species in our tanks and they all die in the ocean at least there is some left somewhere. But if it comes down to them all dying in the ocean were all dead anyways. I don't know that my post has much meaning to anyone these are just some of my thoughts. I havent really dont enouhg reserch to say whos write and whose wrong. im not GOD but I think that that them dynamite and cyanide people ( or things ) should be shot in the head.
jusy my $0.02
jusy my $0.02
I think Greenbeans response was perfectly acceptable. He is a very knowledgable guy. You posted a false statement (regarding bangai cardinals as the only fish negativley effected by the trade), got exposed, and you dont like it. Dont take it out on him. You could learn alot from him, if you would listen.
I dont think you understand the complexities of a coral reef.
Yes people can make man made reef with reef balls and the like, but they are nothing like a natural reef. Like Greenbean says once a reef is degraded to a certain level there is no going back. It's the same with rainforests, when the thin top soil is degraded to such a level and the seedbed burnt, there is no going back.
organism
code monkey
Wow, this thread got a bit out of hand... The wild collection on the reefs does a microscopic amount of damage compared to pollution and destruction of reefs for fishing and concrete purposes.
True, it does some damage, but that's like comparing the damage done by someone walking by an ant hill killing a few ants vs the exterminator coming in and dumping pesticide down the chute. Ants breed, corals breed, and storms wipe out reefs all the time. It's when you get a group of idiots in there with some dynamite and dredges that you end up with real problems.
True, it does some damage, but that's like comparing the damage done by someone walking by an ant hill killing a few ants vs the exterminator coming in and dumping pesticide down the chute. Ants breed, corals breed, and storms wipe out reefs all the time. It's when you get a group of idiots in there with some dynamite and dredges that you end up with real problems.
These debates are getting too heated, and im seeing far too much bickering over (presumed) anecdotal evidence. I think people here on reef central have to post refrences and use more empirical evidence instead of saying "No, your wrong blah blah blah", its bloody childish if you ask me. I take my hat of to those who posted refrences. Thank you.
AMW
New member
iwishtofish
Active member
This thread made me think of the Global Seed Vault in Norway, designed to preserve the biodiversity of the worlds plants in the event they are lost and need resurrection:
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/02/28/world/20080228VAULT_index.html
Aside from solving the problems of permanent loss of species on our reefs through preventative measures, perhaps someone should start a Global Reef Bank, spread out over many different locations.
I will start. Send me frags of all your corals, especially rare ones!
In all seriousness, though - and I think most would agree - of course it makes sense to try to make sure we don't encourage (through our personal actions) those bad harvesting practices that actually do significant harm to certain reefs and species. Yeah, we may not get the prettiest rare wild fish that nobody else has, but I think there are ways to make the most of that which we can acquire responsibly. Aren't there organizations already that promote responsible reefing?
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/02/28/world/20080228VAULT_index.html
Aside from solving the problems of permanent loss of species on our reefs through preventative measures, perhaps someone should start a Global Reef Bank, spread out over many different locations.
I will start. Send me frags of all your corals, especially rare ones!
In all seriousness, though - and I think most would agree - of course it makes sense to try to make sure we don't encourage (through our personal actions) those bad harvesting practices that actually do significant harm to certain reefs and species. Yeah, we may not get the prettiest rare wild fish that nobody else has, but I think there are ways to make the most of that which we can acquire responsibly. Aren't there organizations already that promote responsible reefing?I re-read this old thread to find that it had been resurrected by an advertisement?
MEH, I should have looked at the last post first I guess, live and learn.
So while I'm here - anyone else as depressed as I am about the state of the Caribbean reefs - lionfish, nutrient loading, and the big GW....
J
MEH, I should have looked at the last post first I guess, live and learn.
So while I'm here - anyone else as depressed as I am about the state of the Caribbean reefs - lionfish, nutrient loading, and the big GW....
J
I should point out that RC removed the post of the ad that I was referring to, so my previous post looks a bit out of place with no reference...the advert was just some company selling artificial rock or somthing.
cortez marine
In Memoriam
In Jakarta and Java in general damage is great...
Like Grand Cayman....Raja Ampat has little collecting activity.
Grand Cayman no collecting activity and damage is great.
Haiti ate most of its angels [ not counting pigmys]
Philippines and VietNam and much of Indo create and allow inconvenient and large damages to their reefs directly due to fish collecting activity....but many countrys....do not.
A one size fits all judgement of us by us absurd.
Absolving dirty countrys thru an absolution of the clean ones is not honest.
Conversely, its irritating to work in clean countrys and get criticized because of what they do in S.E.Asia.
The mis-fire on reform efforts there is a scandal and a theft of millions of dollars thru gross mismangaement.
The invocation of a groups mission statement and involvement with a village or two as proof of general progress is dishonest and paints an inaccurate picture.
Making a little beachhead in a tourist area [ for the sake of tourist business] does not grow more converts in the other 98% of the country.
Few countries allow and enable coral reef damage on a widespread and institutional level to collect fish....its just that the few that do are the ones who supply most of the trades livestock.
Outsiders ie. incompetent green groups charged a lot of money to their backers to pretend to do the work . Now, as it becomes clearer that they didn't really do it....some are embarrased.
They pretty much ripped off their financiers and slunk away.
But, they did not do it on aquarium trade money....so in a way they only ripped off the donars.
Still, the habitat damaging collecting problems did not get solved in Indo, Philippines and VietNam as we remain confused as wether or not we should cover up or deny what happened.
Steve
Like Grand Cayman....Raja Ampat has little collecting activity.
Grand Cayman no collecting activity and damage is great.
Haiti ate most of its angels [ not counting pigmys]
Philippines and VietNam and much of Indo create and allow inconvenient and large damages to their reefs directly due to fish collecting activity....but many countrys....do not.
A one size fits all judgement of us by us absurd.
Absolving dirty countrys thru an absolution of the clean ones is not honest.
Conversely, its irritating to work in clean countrys and get criticized because of what they do in S.E.Asia.
The mis-fire on reform efforts there is a scandal and a theft of millions of dollars thru gross mismangaement.
The invocation of a groups mission statement and involvement with a village or two as proof of general progress is dishonest and paints an inaccurate picture.
Making a little beachhead in a tourist area [ for the sake of tourist business] does not grow more converts in the other 98% of the country.
Few countries allow and enable coral reef damage on a widespread and institutional level to collect fish....its just that the few that do are the ones who supply most of the trades livestock.
Outsiders ie. incompetent green groups charged a lot of money to their backers to pretend to do the work . Now, as it becomes clearer that they didn't really do it....some are embarrased.
They pretty much ripped off their financiers and slunk away.
But, they did not do it on aquarium trade money....so in a way they only ripped off the donars.
Still, the habitat damaging collecting problems did not get solved in Indo, Philippines and VietNam as we remain confused as wether or not we should cover up or deny what happened.
Steve
elegance coral
They call me EC
Back in the 80's I went to the Florida Keys, every other weekend for about three years. They were beautiful! Fish, coral, and anemones, everywhere. The abundance of species was almost unbelievable. One of my favorite swimming holes was right off Marathon. There were crucifer anemones (rock/flower anemones) in every color imaginable. Condylactis anemones about every 10 foot. Some of them stretched out about the size of dinner plates. Pink and purple. Simply beautiful! I went back a few months ago and was heart broken by what I found. Most of my swimming hole was covered in what appeared to be dead or dieing macro algae of different species. It was piled up a foot or two deep in some areas. The life that was once attached to the bottom was all but gone. I found two tiny Condylactis about the size of a silver dollar and bleach white. No crucifers, and the fish were missing. The visibility was once about 20 feet or more. Now you can barely see 5 foot away. The damage was horrible! It can not be contributed to our hobby though. IMHO, as a Floridian, I believe the devastation found in the Keys can be contributed to draining the everglades. When we dug canals to drain the glades, we bypassed the filter system that cleaned the water before it reached the Keys. Now the nasty, fertilizer rich water has a direct line to our coral reefs. I'm sure our hobby causes problems is some areas of the world. In my little neck of the woods, placing the blame on the aquarium hobby simply diverts attention away from the true problem.
EC,
Yes, I remember the keys from my high school years in the 1970's - they certainly are not the same. The statistic for Acropora coral (palmata and cervicornis) growth is something on the order of 5% of what it once was. I agree that it isn't due to hobby issues in the U.S. (and much of the Caribbean excpeting Haiti). There were some troubles in the 1970's - they began selling dime sized angelfish because that was about all that they could find. Since Florida instituted bag limits and slot sizes, things have gotten much better in terms of angelfish and other hobby fish.
Jay
Yes, I remember the keys from my high school years in the 1970's - they certainly are not the same. The statistic for Acropora coral (palmata and cervicornis) growth is something on the order of 5% of what it once was. I agree that it isn't due to hobby issues in the U.S. (and much of the Caribbean excpeting Haiti). There were some troubles in the 1970's - they began selling dime sized angelfish because that was about all that they could find. Since Florida instituted bag limits and slot sizes, things have gotten much better in terms of angelfish and other hobby fish.
Jay
AngieSears
New member
I looked it up and read it... Thank you for the suggestion.
cortez marine
In Memoriam
Pollution didn't wipe out the blue tangs in the Philippines.
A few dozen exporters sold poison to their divers by the kilo [ at 50% mark-ups] to use in collecting.
After 40 years or so, the job was nearly completed.
The aquarium trades worst side did this, and defending them is wrong.
Indonesia and the Philippine still have many exporters, middlemen and divers actively engaged in coral killing cyanide fishing.
The clean side of the trade cannot cover for this criminality and it tarnishes us as a whole to allow this scandal to continue unchallenged.
Steve
A few dozen exporters sold poison to their divers by the kilo [ at 50% mark-ups] to use in collecting.
After 40 years or so, the job was nearly completed.
The aquarium trades worst side did this, and defending them is wrong.
Indonesia and the Philippine still have many exporters, middlemen and divers actively engaged in coral killing cyanide fishing.
The clean side of the trade cannot cover for this criminality and it tarnishes us as a whole to allow this scandal to continue unchallenged.
Steve
