There is no such thing as a Picasso Clown Fish

[davocean]

If you go to ORA's site they have clearly indicated picasso's as a naturally bred variant of the percula species found in solomon islands and Papua new guinea, though somewhat rare in the wild, and those wild caught picasso's are collected and bred by them.
I'm not sure what else you need, just a strange post that seems begging of attention.

Anyone that would like to educate themselves or seek specific info can read here.

http://www.orafarm.com/product/picasso-clownfish/

 

[D-Nak]

If you go to ORA's site they have clearly indicated picasso's as a naturally bred variant of the percula species found in solomon islands and Papua new guinea, though somewhat rare in the wild, and those wild caught picasso's are collected and bred by them.
I'm not sure what else you need, just a strange post that seems begging of attention.

Anyone that would like to educate themselves or seek specific info can read here.

http://www.orafarm.com/product/picasso-clownfish/

And what's key to information they provide is this:

"The majority of Picasso offspring look like ordinary Perculas."

So how are those fish classified? Are they Picasso or Percula?

 

[raythepilot]

And what's key to information they provide is this:

"The majority of Picasso offspring look like ordinary Perculas."

So how are those fish classified? Are they Picasso or Percula?

Dah! The light goes on!

The thing you call a Picasso is not a fish but a gene. A gene which may or may not be passed to the next generation as a phenotype.

Did you check out the Angel fish site. Those people are light years past you with understanding this mutation breeding.

You are at the hands of breeders who generate mutations just to get ignorant people to pay for worthless phenotypes that probably will not breed true and could be genetically defective.

 

[davocean]

And what's key to information they provide is this:

"The majority of Picasso offspring look like ordinary Perculas."

So how are those fish classified? Are they Picasso or Percula?

They are all percula, and ones w/ patterns will be classified as a percula variant/picasso, and rated according to pattern that has been generally accepted by most if not all breeders according to pattern amount and symmetry.

 

[davocean]

You are at the hands of breeders who generate mutations just to get ignorant people to pay for worthless phenotypes that probably will not breed true and could be genetically defective.

This is not limited to picasso's but rather anything that can be bred for profit, and that includes your standard percs and occs., and they all do actually exist whether you choose to accept that or not.(This all kind of reminds me of those folks living in a country not claiming a particular leader as that country's leader!lol)

 

[ThRoewer]

I think you have a valid point, but the way by which you address the issue -- saying that there is no such thing as a Picasso when there clearly is -- will unfortunately lead to ad hominem arguments.

To review, we commonly refer to a wild Percula having aberrant markings consisting of additional white barring as having the Picasso gene. To what extent it is expressed typically determines the value of each fish. Where we run into issues is when we start taking this wild stock and begin creating hybrids and other morphs, and this is where a governing/organizing body would be beneficial.

My question is, how does one create an organizing body? These "designer" clownfish have been available for many years now, and I don't see any effort made to create anything "official" aside from lists of morphs/strains. The bigger question to how and why might be the who -- who would we trust to develop this type of registry?

That train has long left the station...
Clownfish are the guppies of the saltwater tank. Because almost everyone can breed them it is difficult, if not impossible, to govern what hits the market. Add to that the lack of concern from the majority of buyers and you have a situation where hardly anyone actually cares.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[davocean]

Lack of concern may be an issue, but really I think more so is a lack of knowledge on the part of many buyers and even some sellers, many just do not know what to look for.

People used to hit me up all the time to breed my Donis, while the female was perfect the male did have a very slight underbite, and that kept me from doing so, I knew it was just dumbing down the species and not the right thing to do, but yeah, sadly there are many that just do not care and want to make a buck.

The best thing we can do is post TRUE FACTUAL info here regardless of what your personal opinion is and just bashing a species or variant just because they do not happen to suit your particular taste.

 

[bendeng]

Picasso is the name of the gene mutation variant that produces the desired quality someone chose to call "Picasso" found in naturally bred clownfish.

BREED
noun

noun:*breed; plural noun:*breeds

1.

a stock of animals or plants within a species having a distinctive appearance and typically having been developed by deliberate selection.

synonyms:variety,*stock,*strain;*

type,*kind,*sort

"a breed of cow"

Just like dog breeds have their own variants such as a "yellow" labrador or "black" labrador. A Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is also a breed of dog with genetic variants of "Ruby", "Tri-color" aka "Prince Charles", "Black and Tan" aka "King Charles", and "Blenheim". While these are all dogs of the Cavalier King Charles breed, the names are used to differentiate the variety of genetic differences in their appearances of coat colors.

"Picasso", "Wyoming White", "Snowflake" are all variants of the clownfish breed. A way to differentiate the genetic variants in the clownfish's appearance and markings.

If you are already complaining about marketing ploys on "designer clownfish" with fancy names, creating a registry will only hike the prices up more as that would indeed cost more money for breeders who want to register their clownfish appropriately with said organization that needs staff to manage and run to ensure standards are created and enforced.

Backyard breeders will always exist, as well as unplanned breedings and slight variations will come in between as a result of that.

Take a deep breath buddy, youre really stressing over the wrong things here. If the titles and names of the breed variations bother you so much, don't buy or breed them



Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[duncanpate1]

What was the purpose of this thread?

To waste time! Who cares?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[raythepilot]

My question is, how does one create an organizing body? These "designer" clownfish have been available for many years now, and I don't see any effort made to create anything "official" aside from lists of morphs/strains. The bigger question to how and why might be the who -- who would we trust to develop this type of registry?

Actually the breeders like ORA are the best people to bring order to this. From doing the mutation breeding, they already know (or should know) the various genes responsible for the various phenotypes.

The problem is that they have a market that sucks up every weird phenotype they produce, so; there is no incentive to give this information away.

What is needed is a group of dedicated amateurs who can work out the genes from breeding experiments. If someone can do the DNA sequences that would be faster and easier but pretty expensive.

There probably are not that many genes involved, so; it is not too bad but I think that companies like ORA may be using chemical or physical methods to increase the chances of finding new mutations.

I guess you need to start a "Clown fish club" and get people to breed various clown phenotypes to work out the genes.

 

[jalisco]

Picasso is the name of the gene mutation variant that produces the desired quality someone chose to call "Picasso" found in naturally bred clownfish.

BREED
noun

noun:*breed; plural noun:*breeds

1.

a stock of animals or plants within a species having a distinctive appearance and typically having been developed by deliberate selection.

synonyms:variety,*stock,*strain;*

type,*kind,*sort

"a breed of cow"

Just like dog breeds have their own variants such as a "yellow" labrador or "black" labrador. A Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is also a breed of dog with genetic variants of "Ruby", "Tri-color" aka "Prince Charles", "Black and Tan" aka "King Charles", and "Blenheim". While these are all dogs of the Cavalier King Charles breed, the names are used to differentiate the variety of genetic differences in their appearances of coat colors.

"Picasso", "Wyoming White", "Snowflake" are all variants of the clownfish breed. A way to differentiate the genetic variants in the clownfish's appearance and markings.

If you are already complaining about marketing ploys on "designer clownfish" with fancy names, creating a registry will only hike the prices up more as that would indeed cost more money for breeders who want to register their clownfish appropriately with said organization that needs staff to manage and run to ensure standards are created and enforced.

Backyard breeders will always exist, as well as unplanned breedings and slight variations will come in between as a result of that.

Take a deep breath buddy, youre really stressing over the wrong things here. If the titles and names of the breed variations bother you so much, don't buy or breed them



Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

To waste time! Who cares?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

After those two posts this thread should be closed and deleted to ensure there is plenty of space for threads that evolve tank management, progress inhabitant husbandry and advances the hobby.
A thread discussing the dangers of hybridization, form over function breeding and backyard breeding would have helped you get to where I think it is you are trying to go. The thread could have also linked to seminars and started a list of responsible breeders and responsible sellers like miniwaters.fish who are trying to keep wild genetics clean in captivity. But oddly enough I don't believe you have umbrage with any of that as much as you seem to want the naming process taken out of the hands of collectors and breeders then placed in the hands of bureaucratic regulators where you then want it coupled with some sort of guarantee.

 

[raythepilot]

After those two posts this thread should be closed and deleted to ensure there is plenty of space for threads that evolve tank management, progress inhabitant husbandry and advances the hobby.
A thread discussing the dangers of hybridization, form over function breeding and backyard breeding would have helped you get to where I think it is you are trying to go. The thread could have also linked to seminars and started a list of responsible breeders and responsible sellers like miniwaters.fish who are trying to keep wild genetics clean in captivity. But oddly enough I don't believe you have umbrage with any of that as much as you seem to want the naming process taken out of the hands of collectors and breeders then placed in the hands of bureaucratic regulators where you then want it coupled with some sort of guarantee.

This is an interesting post!
My goal, as stated, is to get this mutation breeding on a scientifically based system, so; that everyone understands how and why their particular phenotype fits in with the generally recognized scientific system of mutation breeding. This has nothing to do with the dangers of mutation breeding or the preservation of wild genes.
Seriously! Others have done it. I don't understand why clown fish people object to science?
http://theangelfishsociety.org/phenotypes/volume1.htm

 

[CoralsAddiction]

OP, it doesn't seem like you want to learn any of the common/non-scientific clownfish names at all. No offense to you but someone who doesn't even know what Saddleback clownfish is and instead thinks it's a S. Haddoni bears no credibility in this discussion. And it's not ad hominem attack on you. I knew from the get go this was just a trolling thread. Mods, please lock it up.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2632888

 

[BrianD]

What was the purpose of this thread?

None that I can determine.