Thinking about a Seahorse Fuge
- Thread starter reefgeezer
- Start date
reefgeezer
Active member
Thanks for the pm namxas. I been to that site and read the information you sent me. I don't think RC would have any problem with that information. Nice tank by the way.
I see no mention of fish in either yours or rayjay's seahorse tanks. Do the lower temperatures maintained in your tanks rule them out?
Do you know of anyone using UV or ozone to limit microbial populations in seahorse tanks rather than temperature? I've found several studies about limiting vibrio spp. and other gram negative bacteria in closed systems using UV sterilization. However, they were not systems housing seahorses. Other reading leads me to believe that the biggest player in the illnesses of seahorses is vibrio spp. related.
I still can't accept that is the only one way to keep a thriving seahorse tank. I'm still finding information that makes me think H. Ingens is a tropical species. Can you tell me where I can find information to the contrary?
As always, thanks for you advice and opinions.
I see no mention of fish in either yours or rayjay's seahorse tanks. Do the lower temperatures maintained in your tanks rule them out?
Do you know of anyone using UV or ozone to limit microbial populations in seahorse tanks rather than temperature? I've found several studies about limiting vibrio spp. and other gram negative bacteria in closed systems using UV sterilization. However, they were not systems housing seahorses. Other reading leads me to believe that the biggest player in the illnesses of seahorses is vibrio spp. related.
I still can't accept that is the only one way to keep a thriving seahorse tank. I'm still finding information that makes me think H. Ingens is a tropical species. Can you tell me where I can find information to the contrary?
As always, thanks for you advice and opinions.
wdt2000
Member
We use UV in our grow out and broodstock tanks.
Look at H.Ingens natural range to get an idea of the temps, looks temperate to me.
http://www.fishbase.org/summary/speciessummary.php?id=3284
Look at H.Ingens natural range to get an idea of the temps, looks temperate to me.
http://www.fishbase.org/summary/speciessummary.php?id=3284
namxas
Things With Stings R Us!
H. ingens is indeed a temperate species from the eastern Pacific. I actually had the occasion to design a nursery for someone who was raising ingens a few years back, and one of the issues was keeping them cool.
I live in the coastal L.A. area and I can tell you that the water temp here very rarely hits 70*F on a super hot summer, and it's about the same temp down south (I've dived and surfed there).
I live in the coastal L.A. area and I can tell you that the water temp here very rarely hits 70*F on a super hot summer, and it's about the same temp down south (I've dived and surfed there).
There are probably some fish that cannot handle the cooler water, but I know there are other fish tankmates in many seahorse tanks.
In my case, I have enough other tanks I don't need to keep other fish in with seahorses. The fish I keep are not compatible with seahorses either.
The main reason I don't keep other fish with seahorses though is to lessen the chances of introducing other pathogens from other fish, to seahorses that probably haven't had exposure to prior. This can be problematic for seahorses.
In my case, I have enough other tanks I don't need to keep other fish in with seahorses. The fish I keep are not compatible with seahorses either.
The main reason I don't keep other fish with seahorses though is to lessen the chances of introducing other pathogens from other fish, to seahorses that probably haven't had exposure to prior. This can be problematic for seahorses.
reefgeezer
Active member
Thanks for the corrections on H. Ingens. Now I can't find where they were listed as "tropical". It coulnd't possibly be my mistake. Must be a conspiracy!
wdt2000
Member
Thanks for the corrections on H. Ingens. Now I can't find where they were listed as "tropical". It coulnd't possibly be my mistake. Must be a conspiracy!
Seahorsesource has them listed at tropical temps "Water Temperature: 68 to 78 degrees Fahrenheit. 20 to 26 degrees Celsius."
reefgeezer
Active member
Thanks, I was hoping I wasn't just going nuts. However, after looking at the their range, I think the 68 F temp is more normal than the 78. I think H. redi might be a better fit for the tank.
reefgeezer
Active member
I really appreciate everyone's advice. While I understand the risks, I really want to attempt to create a seahorse habitat where the water chemistry, quality, and stability are like that found in my reef. I also wish to use the sand bed, sea grass and mangroves that will be in the habitat to benefit the water quality of the reef. To that end, in spite of the sound advice given here, I've decided to create a tank that is connected to the sump that operates the reef tank.
The reef tank runs about 78-79 F now and 79-80 in the summer but I think I can reduce that a couple of degrees using fans over the tanks and sump to increase evaporative cooling. I also wouldn't be against adding a small drop in chiller if necessary. However, 76 is about as low as I'd be willing to go, so I'll also be adding a UV Sterlizer in-line to the seahorse tank and increasing flow. The tank will be populated by a single pair of seahorses (H. redi I think), a couple of Mandarin Gobies, a Pipefish or two, and a clean-up crew heavy on detrivoirs (sp?).
I'll try to continue this thread as the build progresses. If I can figure out how maybe a picture or two. Thanks again for all of the advise.
The reef tank runs about 78-79 F now and 79-80 in the summer but I think I can reduce that a couple of degrees using fans over the tanks and sump to increase evaporative cooling. I also wouldn't be against adding a small drop in chiller if necessary. However, 76 is about as low as I'd be willing to go, so I'll also be adding a UV Sterlizer in-line to the seahorse tank and increasing flow. The tank will be populated by a single pair of seahorses (H. redi I think), a couple of Mandarin Gobies, a Pipefish or two, and a clean-up crew heavy on detrivoirs (sp?).
I'll try to continue this thread as the build progresses. If I can figure out how maybe a picture or two. Thanks again for all of the advise.
VacavilleFC3S
New member
at 78 they'll eventually get infections and die. what your doing is irresponsible
That statement I would say is a bit too cut and dried.
There are seahorses kept at temperatures in the 80's, just not many compared to the numbers that perish at higher temps.
Also, even at the lower temperatures, many seahorses still will die, even from bacterial influences, pointing out that you can loose your seahorses even though you do all that is best for them.
It's like people, some are better equipped to deal with life's interactions than others and having the best car doesn't guarantee we will live a full life.
reefgeezer
Active member
As I said, I plan on lowering the reef temp, just not below 76. An oversized UV will increase heat. I think a 15 watt in line with the seahorse tank supply will work just fine. It will have about 200-300 GPH going through it. While this is undersized for the entire system, it is about right for the seahorse tank. The flow is kinda up in the air right now as I haven't calculated the dosage required yet. This goal will be to provide the UV exposure required to kill Vibrio sp. bacteria and limit the population of others without adding heat to the water.
I see no reason why 76-78 is not a responsible temperature for H.redi seahorses when the following conditions are met:
1. Stable water conditions are maintained.
0 ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate < 5 ppm (< 2 ppm in my tank)
Temperature stability +/- 1 F
Low TOC/High ORP
Stable water chemistry particularly salinity
2. Stress reducing environment
Low flow resting/hiding areas
Placement of tank in low traffic area
STABILITY
3. Bacteria and other pathogen control
UV, ozone, skimming, etc.
4. Increased flow and a clean-up crew to remove uneaten food and waste
Sadly, I'm not saying I won't lost a seahorse while learning to care for them, but as far as I can tell from the reading I've done, neither can most regardless of the method they use.
John, I wish you and your future seahorses all the luck in the world.
Many many people have tried just like you propose to do, even reefers with decades of experience, and most fail in the long term, many in the short term.
I'm one of them.
I didn't try ozone but I think it's like the UV and doesn't kill off enough bacteria because much of the bacteria never goes through the UV.
When you get going, it may be best to start a new "build" thread so it is more manageable.
Many many people have tried just like you propose to do, even reefers with decades of experience, and most fail in the long term, many in the short term.
I'm one of them.
I didn't try ozone but I think it's like the UV and doesn't kill off enough bacteria because much of the bacteria never goes through the UV.
When you get going, it may be best to start a new "build" thread so it is more manageable.
reefgeezer
Active member
Thanks, rayjay. I suppose I'm pretty hard headed and need to see for myself. That seems to be a universal trait in this hobby. I hope the seahorses thrive in this system also and pray it doesn't take me too long to learn how to care for them. It will be quite a while before there are any seahorses in the tank. I have a lot of details to iron out and quite a bit of fabrication to do as the tank and stand will be hand built. I'm sure there will be many more questions in the future.
TamiW
Seahorse Wrangler
I wonder if you couldn't do something else to cool the water before it gets to the seahorse aquarium, like a long bit of hose coiled up that has a fan passing over it. I bet, if set up right, you could drop the temp a degree or two going between the aquariums.
One thing to consider thought is that you're going to be dumping a LOT of nutrients back into your reef tank. I would prepare now on how you're going to attack problem algae like hair algae, cyanobacteria, etc . . . And also what you'll do if your sps turn brown.
Your best course of action at those temperatures is probably going to be to have a reasonable high flow rate to really keep things moving.
On that note, is there a reason why you want to attach it to your reef tank as opposed to a separate system? It sounds like you have a very elaborate system planned to make it work. That amount of effort and equipment could make a rocking system of its own.
I also wouldn't worry too much about low/high traffic areas of the house - seahorses learn to be very comfortable around people, and often learn to recognize their providers, begging for food. Kind of an irritation actually, because if I want to observe things like breeding behavior, I have to stand across the room and hope I'm not spotted.
One thing to consider thought is that you're going to be dumping a LOT of nutrients back into your reef tank. I would prepare now on how you're going to attack problem algae like hair algae, cyanobacteria, etc . . . And also what you'll do if your sps turn brown.
Your best course of action at those temperatures is probably going to be to have a reasonable high flow rate to really keep things moving.
On that note, is there a reason why you want to attach it to your reef tank as opposed to a separate system? It sounds like you have a very elaborate system planned to make it work. That amount of effort and equipment could make a rocking system of its own.
I also wouldn't worry too much about low/high traffic areas of the house - seahorses learn to be very comfortable around people, and often learn to recognize their providers, begging for food. Kind of an irritation actually, because if I want to observe things like breeding behavior, I have to stand across the room and hope I'm not spotted.
TamiW
Seahorse Wrangler
I don't know that is the case. I think the rules were put in place when the only activity on the seahorse & pipefish forum was answered with "go checkout seahorse.org". It was really bad for a while and really stifled conversation. But I think, at least I assume based on the occasional link I see here as long as you're reasonable about it no one cares.
reefgeezer
Active member
Hi Tami,
The seahorse tank has two purposes. 1) To house the seahorses and other shy, slow eating animals, and 2) to provide a place to grow seagrass and mangroves to improve diversity and nutrient export for the reef.
I can lower the temp of my reef a couple of degrees and am even considering placing chiller in the main reef's sump if needed. I'll know that before the seahorses are placed in it the system. Nutrients aren't an issue. I'm already feeding the reef fish way more than I like to keep some nutrients in the system so the corals color up. The plants I will place in the seahorse tank will only increase the system's nutrient control capability.
The seahorse tank has two purposes. 1) To house the seahorses and other shy, slow eating animals, and 2) to provide a place to grow seagrass and mangroves to improve diversity and nutrient export for the reef.
I can lower the temp of my reef a couple of degrees and am even considering placing chiller in the main reef's sump if needed. I'll know that before the seahorses are placed in it the system. Nutrients aren't an issue. I'm already feeding the reef fish way more than I like to keep some nutrients in the system so the corals color up. The plants I will place in the seahorse tank will only increase the system's nutrient control capability.
TamiW
Seahorse Wrangler
"nutrient export for the reef."
Trust me, that's not going to happen. I don't think you realize just how messy seahorses are. Your reef is likely going to act as a nutrient export for the seahorse tank. That plants will of course help a little, but aren't going to come close to the nutrients your seahorses will product. One very important thing to remember is that in addition to the multiple-times-a-day feedings, seahorses have a very inefficient gut and they poop out food that's not well digested and full of nutrients. I can't imagine you're feeding now anything close to what you'll feed with seahorses.
If you're committed to the shared system, then I'd start looking at additional nutrient export measures. Perhaps an algae turf scrubber? I'm just starting to experiment with one of these and the results so far are promising.
Fishfish0001
New member
Doesn't UV require a much lower flow rate (<80gph) to kill most bacteria and pathogens?
