This is crazy, our tax dollars at work

[Ted_C]

yes - but I have no idea if he (JeffBerg) is/was licensed or not. I also don't know how pest free the frags were and didn't know enough at the time - being too new to the hobby. I saw no ill effects or pests after three months so considered myself lucky.

I would agree if your selling $300 frag packs and shipping like Jeff used to do - he should have been licensed to do so.

That's not who I was speaking about though.

 

[TampaSnooker]

All of the Dept of Ag inspectors I"ve dealt with in person have talked about denying hobbyists licenses - they just don't have time for all of them. We even had trouble getting a client certified and they have 2 x 1000 gal reef systems that are pretty well grown in. We harvest regularly from the tanks and wanted a proper chain of command for all the cuttings.

Dept of Ag typically defers law inforcement to FWC for aquaculture issues, if there is a legal issue. But if there is FWC involvement, it's more likely their own doing.

 

[snake1]

So not to beat a dead horse but the brief overview of a bunch of chatter on here I'm picking up that since my fish are getting to big for my tank I can't sell them or give them away that it would maybe be better for me to throw them away in the trash so I don't get in trouble with the agency that is protecting them....then what happens when PETA gets wind of this.... Sorry I'm just being an a**hole

 

[toddmau5]

I almost wonder if a letter to the state might be needed in order to get some clarification. I agree with bluecoast. Long before this thread popped up I started reading about the different statutes and certification levels. I love the hobby. I love diving. What if I see something while I'm diving, what can I and can't I do, is what started getting me to dig into all this. The statutes say one thing which seem to be very clear cut but at the same time also seem to cast a large umbrella over everyone, then again on the side of the dept of agg and their licensing it doesn't seem so very clear anymore. Do other states have these sorts of laws in place?
Maybe we need to form a very clear well written letter from the hobbyists as a whole?

 

[BobbyV]

My opinion:

99% of us are common hobbiest just grateful to keep our corals alive and happy. Fragging to us is a bonus!

We acquire one or two polyp or 1-2 inch original frags. In our world it takes 6 months to a year or so to even frag our original frag. (If they make it.)

With that being said, Reef Central forum as a whole understands this. They clearly explain in the rules that you will be banned from the forum if you are using this community to support a private business. They support the common hobbiest to sell/trade your 1-5 polyp or 1-3 inch frags.

They want you to have fun in the hobby. They encourage us to interact and share "best practices".

If you are "able" to some how produce a large number of frags and have a huge fragging commercial system than obviously you can afford a license.

If the law can be interpreted as pertaining to you "commercial" sized operation than yea do the smart thing and go get a license.

It is a good problem to be interpreted as a need to require a license. This means you are well a ahead of 99% of us.

Same goes for rearing 30 clownfish a month or something of that nature.

I believe the FWC is enforced by normal people like you and I that has an appreciation for nature.

Use common sense .. .. .. My ultimate opinion, don't make more of an issue than it needs to be.

You need a $25 annual license to fish and be cognizant of daily catch limits. If you abuse the privilege than of course you will be at risk.

If for some wild reason if this hobby does require me to buy a license because I want to trade a two polyp hornet zoa for a two polyp rasta zoa than I guess I will buy a license.

From my understanding, keep in mind this original "rumor" supposedly came from a *****list seller. There some super shady people on *****list. If true, I am sure the FWC had a good reason and they probably deserved it and 99% would agree to the detailed unique circumstance. We are a specialized bunch that collectively are aware of industry standard.

Example: We all for the most part want to abide to the law so that we can continue with the love of this hobby. Which is why this thread is causing some hysteria and evolving our own thoughts due to lack of an official guidance reassuring us to not be so stressed.

In addition, I don't believe the FWC would want to prey on the average hobbiest because of our desire to in captivity produce our own resources than "steal" from our planet's natural resources.

However if I ever become lucky enough to be a position to successfully produce frags on a large scale and "on a consistent basis, easily interpreted as a commercial operation", I will absolutely apply for/ purchase a license.

I also hear that not all licenses applied for are actually granted. I guess you have to meet a certain criteria.

Unless otherwise nationally/state advised or even RC Mod advised ..... ..... Relax and enjoy the hobby! :thumbsup:

 

[toddmau5]

My opinion:

99% of us are common hobbiest just grateful to keep our corals alive and happy. Fragging to us is a bonus!

We acquire one or two polyp or 1-2 inch original frags. In our world it takes 6 months to a year or so to even frag our original frag. (If they make it.)

With that being said, Reef Central forum as a whole understands this. They clearly explain in the rules that you will be banned from the forum if you are using this community to support a private business. They support the common hobbiest to sell/trade your 1-5 polyp or 1-3 inch frags.

They want you to have fun in the hobby. They encourage us to interact and share "best practices".

If you are "able" to some how produce a large number of frags and have a huge fragging commercial system than obviously you can afford a license.

If the law can be interpreted as pertaining to you "commercial" sized operation than yea do the smart thing and go get a license.

It is a good problem to be interpreted as a need to require a license. This means you are well a ahead of 99% of us.

Same goes for rearing 30 clownfish a month or something of that nature.

I believe the FWC is enforced by normal people like you and I that has an appreciation for nature.

Use common sense .. .. .. My ultimate opinion, don't make more of an issue than it needs to be.

You need a $25 annual license to fish and be cognizant of daily catch limits. If you abuse the privilege than of course you will be at risk.

If for some wild reason if this hobby does require me to buy a license because I want to trade a two polyp hornet zoa for a two polyp rasta zoa than I guess I will buy a license.

From my understanding, keep in mind this original "rumor" supposedly came from a *****list seller. There some super shady people on *****list. If true, I am sure the FWC had a good reason and they probably deserved it and 99% would agree to the detailed unique circumstance. We are a specialized bunch that collectively are aware of industry standard.

Example: We all for the most part want to abide to the law so that we can continue with the love of this hobby. Which is why this thread is causing some hysteria and evolving our own thoughts due to lack of an official guidance reassuring us to not be so stressed.

In addition, I don't believe the FWC would want to prey on the average hobbiest because of our desire to in captivity produce our own resources than "steal" from our planet's natural resources.

However if I ever become lucky enough to be a position to successfully produce frags on a large scale and "on a consistent basis, easily interpreted as a commercial operation", I will absolutely apply for/ purchase a license.

I also hear that not all licenses applied for are actually granted. I guess you have to meet a certain criteria.

Unless otherwise nationally/state advised or even RC Mod advised ..... ..... Relax and enjoy the hobby! :thumbsup:

I agree whole heartedly. I by no means have any plans to get to the point where I would be considered "commercial". there are a couple people on RC that could almost be classified as commercial but that's neither here nor there. It is a hobby, and some of us have a passion and get great excitement out of being responsible for the growth and the health of our creatures. sometimes things get too big and they need a new home. almost a year in and I'm finally getting to the point that it's time to trim some things out. I think most of us, from a hobby standpoint would just really like some clarification or reassurances from the state that we are doing the right thing. Depending on the validity and the interpretation of the two stories/rumors out of Orlando it almost appears that they did go after the small hobbyists. granted we don't know the whole story or the fwc side of the story, so there is lots of stuff left in the dark, a lot of us just have too much at risk to take a chance on the "grey"areas. I personally would just like the dep to say that the hobbyist will be ok.

 

[snake1]

Well spoken Bobby V......

 

[Ted_C]

Yes - BobbyV said everything I was trying to say - only much more elegantly.

 

[sirrealism]

Very well said BobbyV. On one other point if someone is concerned that they will get in trouble for selling then apply for the license and when your turned down keep the paper work saying you were turned down. Now your covered

 

[aguila88psi]

Yay!!! So everyone is ok with paying retail :thumbsup:, lol, I should have charged more for frags I was selling. I didn't know you guys were ok with paying higher retail prices.

 

[BobbyV]

Yay!!! So everyone is ok with paying retail :thumbsup:, lol, I should have charged more for frags I was selling. I didn't know you guys were ok with paying higher retail prices.

Respectfully stating the obvious with no intentions to offend anyone here:

I am pretty sure the inception of this thread caused unneeded hysteria and got the best of our local community.

I will admit, I took for granted the local generosity and frag pricing offered amongst us.

Due to unrepresented fear of the boogeyman, this hobby has just gotten more expensive!

Am going to an all chalice tank now, five years from now when my chalices are ready to frag and there is some organized clarity .. .. .. Hit me up for some deals for old time sake.

 

[aguila88psi]

You should check out the chalice nhbsab has, as in look at and not purchase lol, that thing is pimp. Looks way better in person.

 

[BobbyV]

You should check out the chalice nhbsab has, as in look at and not purchase lol, that thing is pimp. Looks way better in person.

What do you think he charges to look? :lmao:

 

[aguila88psi]

What do you think he charges to look? :lmao:

:lolspin:

 

[janes_mw]

Not sure hysteria was a good choice of words. Unbelievable was my initial reaction hence why i posted from the ORCA thread. I read the laws and requirements. I just think FWC is outside the intent of the reasons they were written.

 

[BobbyV]

Not sure hysteria was a good choice of words. Unbelievable was my initial reaction hence why i posted from the ORCA thread. I read the laws and requirements. I just think FWC is outside the intent of the reasons they were written.

I understand what you were trying to do, you had good intentions and were looking out for others.

I don't think anybody would disagree.

I also agree unbelievable and if true, an extreme use of FWC's valuable time.

I take back the use of hysteria so you feel better, I choose anxiety.

At the end of the day, we are a bunch of reef nerds trying to find and outlet to our daily routine lives.

If some of us have a couple of $10 zoa frags to help off set the $65 buckets of salt, I encourage trading them up. It is all harmless fun.

Note that all my efforts are to diffuse the tension in this thread.

 

[janes_mw]

Amen

 

[ichthyman]

PLEASE READ AND DIGEST FULLY BEFORE FLAMING. :angryfire::love1:

Although quoting, I am not singling out any one individual but instead addressing what I believe to be widespread misplaced "œanger".

I just think FWC is outside the intent of the reasons they were written.

FWC are not the bad guys nor is this a new issue. The officers are doing their job by enforcing the law "as written" and issuing citations to those in violation. Simply put, there is no exemption for hobbyists engaging in commerce, trade/sell/barter, of saltwater products within the State of Florida. ignorantia legis neminem excusat or in a non typical sense caveat venditor. For as long as I remember, the core of laws governing our hobby has been unchanged. Restricted species, bag limits, sanctuaries and collection methods have been updated but not the definitions of collector, wholesaler or retailer. When these core laws originated marine organisms out-growing or reproducing within home aquarium was unheard of or an extreme rarity. Today fish and inverts out-grow or reproduce in our tanks. The past's rarity is now common place and new definitions are needed. A humane legal pathway needs to be devised for the hobbyist to crop overgrowth from their aquariums. IMO, griping that FWC is abusing their enforcement power, which they're not, is letting the regulators and legislators off the hook.

 

[janes_mw]

PLEASE READ AND DIGEST FULLY BEFORE FLAMING. :angryfire::love1:

Although quoting, I am not singling out any one individual but instead addressing what I believe to be widespread misplaced “anger”.



FWC are not the bad guys nor is this a new issue. The officers are doing their job by enforcing the law "as written" and issuing citations to those in violation. Simply put, there is no exemption for hobbyists engaging in commerce, trade/sell/barter, of saltwater products within the State of Florida. ignorantia legis neminem excusat or in a non typical sense caveat venditor. For as long as I remember, the core of laws governing our hobby has been unchanged. Restricted species, bag limits, sanctuaries and collection methods have been updated but not the definitions of collector, wholesaler or retailer. When these core laws originated marine organisms out-growing or reproducing within home aquarium was unheard of or an extreme rarity. Today fish and inverts out-grow or reproduce in our tanks. The past’s rarity is now common place and new definitions are needed. A humane legal pathway needs to be devised for the hobbyist to crop overgrowth from their aquariums. IMO, griping that FWC is abusing their enforcement power, which they’re not, is letting the regulators and legislators off the hook.

I think we actually agree on this one
As you state, the laws were written prior to the hobby becoming what it is today and the FWC is trying to do their job and enforce outdated laws. I think they have "bigger fish to fry" although (ever been to Walmart or Petco or?)

So we agree in principle, just disagree in details . Like you say, update the laws and then enforce something that was intended for the hobby.



peace to all
mike

 

[ZeroBullChip]

PLEASE READ AND DIGEST FULLY BEFORE FLAMING. :angryfire::love1:

Although quoting, I am not singling out any one individual but instead addressing what I believe to be widespread misplaced "œanger".



FWC are not the bad guys nor is this a new issue. The officers are doing their job by enforcing the law "as written" and issuing citations to those in violation. Simply put, there is no exemption for hobbyists engaging in commerce, trade/sell/barter, of saltwater products within the State of Florida. ignorantia legis neminem excusat or in a non typical sense caveat venditor. For as long as I remember, the core of laws governing our hobby has been unchanged. Restricted species, bag limits, sanctuaries and collection methods have been updated but not the definitions of collector, wholesaler or retailer. When these core laws originated marine organisms out-growing or reproducing within home aquarium was unheard of or an extreme rarity. Today fish and inverts out-grow or reproduce in our tanks. The past's rarity is now common place and new definitions are needed. A humane legal pathway needs to be devised for the hobbyist to crop overgrowth from their aquariums. IMO, griping that FWC is abusing their enforcement power, which they're not, is letting the regulators and legislators off the hook.

Totally true, but the enforcement of our laws is not to the letter of the law, but in the spirit of the law. We live under common law. Law enforcement has this level of discretion, so do prosecutors. I agree though that we need to have the legislators re-work the written statues so that it is clearer for us all (especially law enforcement)