This is crazy, our tax dollars at work

[ichthyman]

"But, but, but, but......"

There is no ambiguity. You must present possess a valid saltwater products license or an aquaculture certificate to engage in any commerce in salt water products within the state of Florida. The intent of the legislators at that time is clear and we are still governed by those laws. Whether the regulations reflect the current status of the hobby or not is irrelevant, FWC is obligated to enforce the current law set of the State. If an issued citation is challenged we'll get to see what the judicial system thinks. However until a judicial ruling or laws are changed in favor of hobbyist commerce, I expect FWC will continue their current activities of citing this type of violation. Again, I believe the rules need to be tweaked but endless gripes about law enforcement is counterproductive. If you want change take concerns to State Representatives or attend open steering committees for the Fish and Wildlife Commission.

 

[ChadRaay86]

"But, but, but, but......"

There is no ambiguity. You must present possess a valid saltwater products license or an aquaculture certificate to engage in any commerce in salt water products within the state of Florida. The intent of the legislators at that time is clear and we are still governed by those laws. Whether the regulations reflect the current status of the hobby or not is irrelevant, FWC is obligated to enforce the current law set of the State. If an issued citation is challenged we'll get to see what the judicial system thinks. However until a judicial ruling or laws are changed in favor of hobbyist commerce, I expect FWC will continue their current activities of citing this type of violation. Again, I believe the rules need to be tweaked but endless gripes about law enforcement is counterproductive. If you want change take concerns to State Representatives or attend open steering committees for the Fish and Wildlife Commission.

Or contact ABC local news "10 on your side" :bounce1:

 

[djsmallz]

Or contact ABC local news "10 on your side" :bounce1:

Funny but very true, the news tends to put very focused light on issues and you usually get faster responses in general. Since working in government I've seen it happen time and time again.

 

[TampaSnooker]

Or contact ABC local news "10 on your side" :bounce1:

Well, they did get people to stop for my kid's schoolbus on SR54 when Pasco SO wouldn't respond...

 

[ZeroBullChip]

Hey, if I am taking native species and depleting the natural resources of this state, I agree. Or even the illegal disposal of non-native species... The law is being interpreted wrong in my opinion with regards to hobbyists. You are dealing with personal property. Not different than an orange tree or a car. I think the only ambiguity is situations where people are fragging and stuff like that. You are still in possession of the original object, and are making money off it's reproduction. That by honest definition is aquaculture. I think there should still be some grandfather clause for hobbyists that separate it from true commercial ventures, as it is just a waste of a living thing.

 

[acro-ed]

Hobbyist "commerce" was not excepted from the laws pertaining to saltwater organism commerce. There is no judicial revision that can happen here; the only way this will change is if the Florida legislature rewrites and passes a revised law.

The calculus that is and will continue to be undertaken, as the laws are written, is:

Were any fish, shellfish, sponges, or coral sold?

If yes, did the seller have a valid aquaculture license (or saltwater products license if the organisms were not "cultured")?

If no, the seller has violated Florida law and is subject to the stated penalties.

FWC is not being unreasonable in its enforcement of these laws; the laws are just unreasonable as they apply to our hobby. There are many instances where a law is unreasonable in its application to a limited number of people in furtherance of a larger objective goal. That is what we are dealing with here, and my opinion is that it is highly unlikely that the law will be rewritten to provide a hobbyist exception.

If you want to sell coral without a license you need to move to a state that does not have legitimate interests in protecting its own aquatic life resources, or you need to allow the state of Florida to send someone to take a look at your facility and pay a small fee.

Trading coral as a hobbyist is not commerce, as far as I have ever known the interpretation of the word to provide for.

Trade as a hobbyist for free, or pay the State for "permission" to "sell." That is my interpretation of the law, as written.

Our hobby implicates some important concerns of the State by virtue of what we are dealing with. We are not selling and trading artwork or beanie babies, we are potentially selling and trading marine life in a State that derives an enormous amount of revenue from marine tourism and harvested marine life.

It is up to you if you want to skirt the $150 fee, but you may someday find yourself with a $500 fine....

-Ed

 

[ichthyman]

^ Where is the "LIKE" button?

 

[Travis1787]

Man I just setup a little Frag tank too ...

Its not like most of us are selling these frags for a living lol its really just to make some money back to dump right back into our tanks .... its a vicious cycle lol

But the law is the law.... how do we apply for this license? Or where? I'd rather pay a fee and go about my occasional selling with no concerns, then get fined out the but thole over $10 frags lol

 

[installman]

OK so according to this I am NOT a marine aquaculture facility. So getting an aquaculture license is not the answer for me. However I cannot find any information that states I may legally sell any corals I own in my hobbyist system. More confused now than I was Before.


379.2523 Aquaculture definitions; marine aquaculture products, producers, and facilities."”
(1) As used in this section, the term:
(a) "œMarine aquaculture facility" means a facility built and operated for the purpose of producing marine aquaculture products. Marine aquaculture facilities contain culture systems such as, but not limited to, ponds, tanks, raceways, cages, and bags used for commercial production, propagation, growout, or product enhancement of marine products. Marine aquaculture facilities specifically do not include:
1. Facilities that maintain marine aquatic organisms exclusively for the purpose of shipping, distribution, marketing, or wholesale and retail sales;
2. Facilities that maintain marine aquatic organisms for noncommercial, education, exhibition, or scientific purposes;
3. Facilities in which the activity does not require an aquaculture certification pursuant to s. 597.004; or
4. Facilities used by marine aquarium hobbyists.
(b) "œMarine aquaculture producer" means a person holding an aquaculture certificate pursuant to s. 597.004 to produce marine aquaculture products.


So should I buy a saltwater products license?

(2) SALTWATER PRODUCTS LICENSE."”
(a) Every person, firm, or corporation that sells, offers for sale, barters, or exchanges for merchandise any saltwater products

Apparently that is not the answer either

(f) Any person who sells saltwater products pursuant to a saltwater products license may sell only to a licensed wholesale dealer.

So what am I supposed to do?

 

[acro-ed]

Installman,

They exclude hobbyist because a hobbyist is not engaged in "commerce." This means that if you are raising coral as a "hobby" you are NOT to get a license, but if you engage in "commerce" (i.e. "sell") relating to fish or coral then you DO need a license.

-Ed

 

[MJNTWise]

I suggest you call them.....I don't believe they will bother you because you are selling because you are moving. Not for profit.

 

[ichthyman]

Making a profit is not a consideration. Per the regulations a license of some type is required to engage in commerce.

 

[MJNTWise]

well thats sucks...This might hurt the hobby in the long run....People might be incline to stay out if you cant sell your stuff if for some reason you have to get out.

 

[Travis1787]

so where do we go to find out information about getting a license?

 

[installman]

My wife tried to call, but they close at 4pm. She will be calling tomorrow and I will post whatever we find out if we get anywhere at all. In the meantime my corals and rock are staying in the tank.

 

[anbosu]

In my opinion, this is the key part:

(2) SALTWATER PRODUCTS LICENSE."”
(a) Every person, firm, or corporation that sells, offers for sale, barters, or exchanges for merchandise any saltwater products

Since you are offering your corals for sale, you fit this bill.

 

[aguila88psi]

In my opinion, this is the key part:

(2) SALTWATER PRODUCTS LICENSE.—
(a) Every person, firm, or corporation that sells, offers for sale, barters, or exchanges for merchandise any saltwater products

Since you are offering your corals for sale, you fit this bill.

corals and saltwatrer products are two different things, no need to get the saltwater products licence if you plan on selling corals

 

[installman]

Still trying to get confirmation one way or the other from fwc. The wife called this am and got transferred three times ending with someone who didn't answer and has no voicemail set up. She will be trying again soon.

 

[anbosu]

corals and saltwatrer products are two different things, no need to get the saltwater products licence if you plan on selling corals

Gotcha.

 

[ichthyman]

According to the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, a saltwater product is defined as any marine fish, shellfish, clam, invertebrate, sponge, jellyfish, coral, crustacean, lobster, crab, shrimp, snail, marine plant, echnioderm, sea star, brittle star or urchin, etc., except non-living shells and salted, cured, canned or smoked seafood.