Treating with Vitamin C

[studmaster]

So quick question, will zoas that have been in a tank that is being dosed with VC not do as well in a tank that does not dose VC if I were to trade some of my zoas?

The only reason I ask, is in the beginning when Pufferpunk was first dosing for her Tubbs, it seemed when she stopped or lowered the amount of VC, the Tubbs would close up again, if I remember correctly.

Anyone had issues like this?

Can adding VC in any way cause more hair algea and or cyano. I had a massive outbreak, so I removed some base rock I recently introduced, added lots of phosphate removing material, but the algea and cyano continues with no reduction. Obviously I need to get a phosphate kit to test the levels, but I hear the affordable ones don't work too well.

 

[Jeff]

Can adding VC in any way cause more hair algea and or cyano. I had a massive outbreak, so I removed some base rock I recently introduced, added lots of phosphate removing material, but the algea and cyano continues with no reduction. Obviously I need to get a phosphate kit to test the levels, but I hear the affordable ones don't work too well.

Some people have reported that their is an increase in cyano for the first week or two and then it goes away completely after dosing for longer periods after noncompeting the algae. I occasionally use a phosphate kit from Salifert. I know it is not accurate at low levels but I figure that if it shows any phosphate, I need to do something about it.

 

[Pufferpunk]

So quick question, will zoas that have been in a tank that is being dosed with VC not do as well in a tank that does not dose VC if I were to trade some of my zoas?

The only reason I ask, is in the beginning when Pufferpunk was first dosing for her Tubbs, it seemed when she stopped or lowered the amount of VC, the Tubbs would close up again, if I remember correctly.

Anyone had issues like this?

IME, if your zoas were doing poorly in your tank & they improve with VC & you stop dosing, they may go downhill again. I can't say for what will happen if you put them in another's tank but my zoas were doing poorly in more than 1 of my tanks.

 

[Snakebyt]

I think i remember reading in here that when dosing VC, that cheato and other macroalgaes would die off. I have some sort of macro that is growing in my main tank and i was wondering if VC would make it die off?
Is there a certain dosage i need to dose to get it to go away? I am currently dosing about 5ppm twice a day.

 

[Pufferpunk]

My cheato just dwindled away. It certainly didn't do anything to get rid of the horrid red turf algae I had & I dose at around 23ppm. Try 10ppm & see...

 

[RGC]

It didn't do anything for my red turf algae either, but turbo snails sure did.

 

[Pufferpunk]

Yes, the only thing that finally got rid of that stuff was Mexican turbos.

 

[studmaster]

VC = low Oxygen levels?

VC = low Oxygen levels?

Pufferpunk...or anyone else who thinks they can answer this question,

I started dosing VC about a month ago to help with nitrate level, which worked....the only problem is that a lot of hair algae started breaking out...and I mean a lot. I was pretty busy and couldn't get down to the real source of the problem...but I think it might go like this:

Adding VC feeds the bacteria (that also use up oxygen in the tank) and create carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide (or lack of O2, not sure which) can cause your PH to drop to around 7.7-7.8. Newly added live rock that was at a PH of 8.4 for a few years started to leach Precipitated Phosphate back into the water because of the low PH, giving the algae enough food to flourish. I added Limewater for a few days, but no matter how much I added the PH wouldn't raise up past 8.0, but the KH and Ca are almost so high that I might have to stop. I took a cup of tank water outside for an hour with an airstone and voila, the PH is above 8.6....which seems to tell me a lack of Oxygen. Could the VC be removing too much Oxygen, causing my PH to lower and release phosphate back into the water?

Silver lining being.....I have no more nitrates

I guess an obvious way to tell is to stop dosing VC and see if the PH raises.

 

[Pufferpunk]

What VC are you using? How much? If you're using the buffered form recommended here, your pH should not be affected at all. The VC has totally starves every remaining bit of cheato I had in my fuge. I'd think it would do that to any green algae.

 

[studmaster]

What VC are you using? How much? If you're using the buffered form recommended here, your pH should not be affected at all. The VC has totally starves every remaining bit of cheato I had in my fuge. I'd think it would do that to any green algae.

I'm using the same VC that you recommend from iherb....although I'm using more of it that you recommend for my tank size, but so far no white clouding of the water or anything. From what I quickly read it seems as if those bacteria that are eating the VC need O2, and it can quickly lower the tank levels. Potentially I could dose more VC to try to starve the hair algea, but the PH might drop more, releasing more of the phosphates from the rocks....creating a bad cycle until all the reservoirs are used up. There are reports of this with dosing of vodka.

My guess is there a happy medium that keeps the PH high enough.

 

[Jeff]

It is one of the effects of dosing a carbon source and perfectly normal. I have seen the same thing with sugar dosing and vitamin c dosing. Other have seen the same thing with vodka dosing. Lots of people have gotten an increase in musience algae and diatoms at the begining and after continued use and additional nutrient drops, the problem goes away. The trick is to stick with it and to continue export of as much of the algae as possible.
When I first started VC dosing I had a skimmer that was too small for the tank and had this same thing happen. After upgrading the skimmer to a very over sized skimmer, the problem went away. Along with "farming" bacteria, it's all about exporting the bacteria after it consumes the bacteria.
What I am getting at is that what you are going thru is normal but effective skimming or other export is key here.

 

[studmaster]

It is one of the effects of dosing a carbon source and perfectly normal. I have seen the same thing with sugar dosing and vitamin c dosing. Other have seen the same thing with vodka dosing. Lots of people have gotten an increase in musience algae and diatoms at the begining and after continued use and additional nutrient drops, the problem goes away. The trick is to stick with it and to continue export of as much of the algae as possible.
When I first started VC dosing I had a skimmer that was too small for the tank and had this same thing happen. After upgrading the skimmer to a very over sized skimmer, the problem went away. Along with "farming" bacteria, it's all about exporting the bacteria after it consumes the bacteria.
What I am getting at is that what you are going thru is normal but effective skimming or other export is key here.

Do you think if I reduced the dosage of VC, the PH would drop less and keep the phosphate bound? My worries is that the previous owner of the live rock had so much phosphate bound into the live rock that I could be trying to export all the phosphates for years until the live rock has completely dissolved.

I will be setting up a sump with Chaeto that will aid in the nutrient exporting, but I want to make sure I'm not doing something to make the matter worse. I've stopped dosing the VC to see if the PH raises back to their old levels and the algea problems go away. If the PH raises back up to normal, I will slowly add VC paying very close attention to the PH. Once it drops a bit, I'll call that the proper VC dosage for my tank.

I think it's time to invest in a digital PH Meter. Unfortunately I didn't have a sump before so I had to get a HOB skimmer....maybe once I get the sump in place I can invest in a bigger better model.

 

[Pufferpunk]

What ppm are you dosing at? I have added as much as 100ppm with no issues, including pH changes. What was your pH before you started dosing? What's your alk before/after?

 

[Pufferpunk]

I occasionally use a phosphate kit from Salifert.

Have you done that lately? Because I think I've had yours sitting here under my desk for about a year now...

 

[saltydog64]

Do you think if I reduced the dosage of VC, the PH would drop less and keep the phosphate bound? My worries is that the previous owner of the live rock had so much phosphate bound into the live rock that I could be trying to export all the phosphates for years until the live rock has completely dissolved.

I will be setting up a sump with Chaeto that will aid in the nutrient exporting, but I want to make sure I'm not doing something to make the matter worse. I've stopped dosing the VC to see if the PH raises back to their old levels and the algea problems go away. If the PH raises back up to normal, I will slowly add VC paying very close attention to the PH. Once it drops a bit, I'll call that the proper VC dosage for my tank.

I think it's time to invest in a digital PH Meter. Unfortunately I didn't have a sump before so I had to get a HOB skimmer....maybe once I get the sump in place I can invest in a bigger better model.

Stud......

How about placing an airstone in there for a few days (be carefull not splash all over your lights and other stuff..) the only quick problem I see with that is if your place (house,etc) is really tight than surrounding atmos. CO2 (we're in middle of the heating season and CO2 can be high) will perhaps over ride this....,but none the less try it !!!

I have just started VC dosing with rate @ 2.5 PPM for 1 week and for the past 11 days @ 5.00 PPM... and the tank is cystal clear with no real issues with pH as I run an EV-120 skimmer which adds tons of air and kicks out some serious junk......

As far as your issues with PO4 when you get your sump up and running, Cheato by it's self willn't remove all PO4... so as soon as you have the exrta $$$ get yourself a Phos Reactor fill it a good PO4 removing media and say good bye to PO4...IMO...

Oh ya take some photos to sure share with us...:rollface::rollface:

Dick

 

[Jeff]

I really think ph issues and long term algae issues are caused by ineffective export (skimming and water changes). I dont think doing water changes for this purpose is effective because it would very difficult and expensive to keep up so we rely on skimming. I noticed a difference when I upgraded my skimmer. I feel that feeding bacteria with a carbon source increases the bacteria population to massive amounts and effective skimming is the best way to keep it under control or they become DOC's and feed algae/cyano. I am no biologist but it makes sense to me. We need Genetics in here to comment.

 

[Genetics]

Hi Jeff! :wave:

saltydog64, I think you are/were on the right track!

Studmaster, I have a few questions for you. Do you have any pics of your setup? What type of skimmer are you running and what are your tank specs. Do you use RO water?

hmmm, just thought of something else....just recently began feeding my puffer red wigglers from my compost bin....I can't get them completely clean, and a tiny bit of soil might come in on the odd one...do you think that could be it?

I don't know how much you feed or how large your tank is but a red wiggler looks like it would add quite a bit of nutrients to the water if uneaten. In fact, if you started adding this much food only recently it may explain why your nitrates just recently spiked.

In addition, these worms look like they grow in compost or in a fertilizer rich substance. Any small amount of this will spike nitrates quickly. Also, you will add phosphates. You may want to think double dilution of the worms in water if you plan to continue their feeding.

He's a GSP, about 4 inches long. Ammonia/Nitrite=0, as they should be. I added about 15lbs of live rock, to my existing 60lbs or so.

Adding live rock from someone's tank can be dangerous. If you ever purchase live rock locally it should be cooked for a month. That's in a closed heated container with a powerhead and a skimmer. The water should be monitored for nitrates and phosphates and controlled during this time. If not you may add phosphates and nitrates to your tank. 60ppm of nitrates is quite a bit and shouldn't come from solely live rock addition.

I started dosing VC about a month ago to help with nitrate level, which worked....the only problem is that a lot of hair algae started breaking out...and I mean a lot. I was pretty busy and couldn't get down to the real source of the problem...but I think it might go like this:

This can be slightly misleading. Your nitrates may have disappeared if you had a rampant growth spurt of algae. In fact, with notable algae growth you cannot actually tell if or how much the VC was helping.

Adding VC feeds the bacteria (that also use up oxygen in the tank) and create carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide (or lack of O2, not sure which) can cause your PH to drop to around 7.7-7.8.

You're correct. Adding VC will promote bacterial growth. If used for energy the carbon dioxide released would cause a drop in pH (however, this will not affect your alkalinity). The way to treat this would be to aerate your water better. You stated you have a HOB skimmer. I haven't seen a model that I would actually recommend for VC dosing.

Could the VC be removing too much Oxygen, causing my PH to lower and release phosphate back into the water?

Oxygen will not influence your pH. There is no great way to gauge oxygen content in seawater with our available kits. Ideally, better skimmer = more oxygenation.

I guess an obvious way to tell is to stop dosing VC and see if the PH raises.

This may also be misleading. If you stop VC now the newly grown algae will still have influence on your pH. You should measure you pH in the morning and in the evening before the lights turn off.

My recommendations would be to slow down on feeding. Wash the worms in water once and then in a fresh cup of water before feeding. I don't know how large your tank is or how many fish you have in it but you should cut back to feeding the minimal until you can get that refugium installed. I would recommend going with chaeto over any other macroalge for ease of removal (I learned that the hard way).

Your nitrates may be undetectable now because of the algae and the VC additions may not be helping much if your skimmer isn't pulling out the excess bacteria/bacterial byproducts. I would recommend stopping VC for a few weeks while you get the refugium online and get measurements for your tank (nitrates, and phosphates being the two most important). Try calling around to LFS and seeing if anyone has a digital phosphate meter or the Hach low range test kit they would measure your levels for you. During this period try to notice if anything changes in your tank.

HTH!!! :thumbsup:

 

[Jeff]

Thanks for checking in Nate .

 

[Genetics]

Problem is, as soon as it's exposed to air, it starts breaking down.

Exposure to air and moisture should have more potential to cause oxidation but not actual breakdown. It would convert from ascorbate to dehydroascorbic acid.

It is one of the effects of dosing a carbon source and perfectly normal. I have seen the same thing with sugar dosing and vitamin c dosing. Other have seen the same thing with vodka dosing. Lots of people have gotten an increase in musience algae and diatoms at the begining and after continued use and additional nutrient drops, the problem goes away. The trick is to stick with it and to continue export of as much of the algae as possible.

Jeff, the idea behind adding small organic molecules is to promote bacterial growth. These molecules are much more easily consumed by the bacteria, either for growth or for energy. When you add something like VC to the water you stimulate these processes and create a sinkhole for nutrients. The bacteria with this carbon now available will pull in nitrates and phosphates along with potentially larger organic molecules. This drastically alters your tank dynamics.

As for the reason some people see an increase in algae and cyano upfront before it disappears may be from multiple reasons. These reasons may include (and by no means limited to) increased carbon dioxide, additional light penetration, and degradation of builtup organic material in anaerobic regions. The cyanobacteria that form a mat on the sand may be essentially trapping the nitrogen that is being produced in these anaerobic regions. Since cyanobacteria can fix nitrogen they may thrive even when nitrates have been eliminated. If after time you see that the cyano dissipates it could be from another change in nutrients coming from the sand. Honestly, I don't know. Just some thoughts.

When I first started VC dosing I had a skimmer that was too small for the tank and had this same thing happen. After upgrading the skimmer to a very over sized skimmer, the problem went away. Along with "farming" bacteria, it's all about exporting the bacteria after it consumes the bacteria.
What I am getting at is that what you are going thru is normal but effective skimming or other export is key here.

Without exportation the bacteria/byproducts would buildup and cause havoc on our reefs. A large skimmer essentially keeps oxygen levels high enough to support the added bacteria and the reef. The larger skimmer also aids in removal of these bacteria/byproducts that accumulate in the water. Without this removal they would eventually degrade. This could cause a dramatic increase in algae in the tank and is why an efficient and oversized skimmer is important with this method.

I feel that feeding bacteria with a carbon source increases the bacteria population to massive amounts and effective skimming is the best way to keep it under control or they become DOC's and feed algae/cyano.

Yes Jeff this is a good idea of the process. However, DOCs to my knowledge do not feed algae growth. Cyano is a different topic altogether. These species have the ability to use DOCs and nitrates while also having the ability to fix nitrogen.

 

[studmaster]

What ppm are you dosing at? I have added as much as 100ppm with no issues, including pH changes. What was your pH before you started dosing? What's your alk before/after?

My PH was 8.4 before I started dosing. I took about 24hrs off of dosing with lost of circulation and surface water movement and the PH returned to normal.
I was dosing about 1/2 tsp twice per day. I don't have any way to test oxygen, but I would have to guess that my theory was correct. I'm going to drop to about 1/4 tsp once per day and keep testing the PH.