Trying to reduce my electrical bill $$$

[power boat jim]

My switch to LED's has resulted in a savings of $30 - $40 per month on my electric bills, more in the summer. We have tiered costs in CA and reducing those last few percent of power useage make a pretty big difference.[/QUOTE]from Nature Nerd

I have seen the very same savings after swithching to LEDs. Its even more in the summer when 1200w of MH would fight with the AC constantly. LEDs Seem to save a greater amount of money the larger the tank. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Garage1217]

I would have to agree with you Naturenerd, that does not sound right in any way shape or form. With my previous 140g total water volume setup and my house at 64-66 in the winter running all led and having 300W in heaters (pair of 150w jagers) My heaters never came close to running 24 hours a day or they would cook the tank easily. And that is without a canopy. My actual heater usage was not terribly high.

 

[karsseboom]

My switch to LED's has resulted in a savings of $30 - $40 per month on my electric bills, more in the summer. We have tiered costs in CA and reducing those last few percent of power useage make a pretty big difference.

from Nature Nerd

30 to 40 dollars a month ummm yeah right dude. My whole tank uses that much per month with everything. If I switched to led I wouldnt save anything. My heater would be on more and the mh I run only cost 14 bucks a month...how much would I really save from LEDs?

 

[hvacman250]

from Nature Nerd

30 to 40 dollars a month ummm yeah right dude. My whole tank uses that much per month with everything. If I switched to led I wouldnt save anything. My heater would be on more and the mh I run only cost 14 bucks a month...how much would I really save from LEDs?

Clearly you have never done the math. Math doesnt lie. You sure have a vendetta out against LED.

You have a 60 gallon tank, correct? My water volume is close to 300 gallons, so my savings are going to be 5x more than yours.

Lets do you some math at 2x250W metal halide vs. my set-up. I would have done 3x250W MH and I did 3x40 LED clusters for a total of 120. For your 2 MH, lets do 80 leds at 3 watt crees. Matching with a PAR meter the same intensity at 65% of max.

80x3W = 240W @65% = 156W vs. your 500W
Lets say you have to supplement w/ 250W of heat during the 8 hours your lights are on (4 hours of heater use)

Leds=37.44 kWH + heater on 4 hrs=30 kWH = $8.09/month at $0.12/kWH
2x250W MH + no heater = $14.40
Savings of $6.31 per month or $75.72 per year

Also I might add these statistics are skewed. There is NO WAY a 250W heater would be on for half your photoperiod of 8 hours. I am heating 300 gallons of water with a 300W and its rarely on. If you dont believe me, I can pull the Apex graph that will clearly prove me right.

A more accurate statistic would be a 150W heater on 3 hours of your 8 hr photoperiod. That brings your monthly savings to $8.30 per month.

Youre also not taking the heat from the MH infiltrating the house, making the AC work harder/longer. Air conditioners pull BIG wattage.

Edit: You're also not taking into account the actinic supplementation you have to provide with your MHs. Whats that, a couple hundred more watts? What about bulb replacement? 2 quality MH bulbs plus 2-4 actinics = $200? So every year you could save $275-300.

Now, I'm not proposing to ditch your MH and go LED, but if your eon a high tier utility or you are just starting up a tank, LED has substantial money savings.

 

[bamf25]

My biggest saving is coming by changing out my pumps. I switched out my Mag 9.5 at 93w for a waterblaster 5000 at 60w. Not only do I save 33w running 24/7, but I have enough extra flow to run two reactors now, with less energy use. When I can, I plan on switching out my older skimmer running 2 x psk2500's at 40w each to something like a Reef Octopus 2000 with one 25w (approx.) pump. Another savings or 55 or so watts. On top of that I run my powerheads 10 hours per day alternating between two sets of 2 ph at 6.5w per pump. So that is next to nothing.

As for those who claim that using LED's in a room that runs on average 68 to 70 degrees (like mine does in the winter) means your heaters run all the time negating any savings is wrong. I have run LED since day one on my tank. A 65 x 3 w led diy running at about 70% power. I can more or less track when my heaters are on by looking at my amps used in my APEX data graph. By using this graph my heaters (400w total) run about 15 to 20% of the time. In the summer when the room averages about 76 degress (my house has central AC but tank is in the warmest room in the house), my heaters do not run at all, so about 4 months out of the year. With that said my temp has never gone above 82 degrees, so I do not need a chiller at all. That saves an absolute bundle.

And yes, it is not an electrical bill savings, but how can you discount bulb and ballast replacement in your savings calculations. Elenergy costs is part of the overall cost off upkeep, so are supplies like bulbs. My diy led cost me about $700. Conservatively, I am saving $20 per month in energy costs for $240 per year plus another $150 in not replacing mh, actinics and ballasts. Even if my diy LED cost me 200 more upfront than a good T5 setup for my tank, I have made up the savings in well less than one year. Sounds good to me. Plus, people say we may have to replace an LED setup every 5 to 7 years, you may be right, but how many people have kept their MH or T5 setup 7 years either?

 

[LJG]

from Nature Nerd

30 to 40 dollars a month ummm yeah right dude. My whole tank uses that much per month with everything. If I switched to led I wouldnt save anything. My heater would be on more and the mh I run only cost 14 bucks a month...how much would I really save from LEDs?

Math is hard. Economies of scale even harder.

 

[karsseboom]

Clearly you have never done the math. Math doesnt lie. You sure have a vendetta out against LED.

You have a 60 gallon tank, correct? My water volume is close to 300 gallons, so my savings are going to be 5x more than yours.

Lets do you some math at 2x250W metal halide vs. my set-up. I would have done 3x250W MH and I did 3x40 LED clusters for a total of 120. For your 2 MH, lets do 80 leds at 3 watt crees. Matching with a PAR meter the same intensity at 65% of max.

80x3W = 240W @65% = 156W vs. your 500W
Lets say you have to supplement w/ 250W of heat during the 8 hours your lights are on (4 hours of heater use)

Leds=37.44 kWH + heater on 4 hrs=30 kWH = $8.09/month at $0.12/kWH
2x250W MH + no heater = $14.40
Savings of $6.31 per month or $75.72 per year

Also I might add these statistics are skewed. There is NO WAY a 250W heater would be on for half your photoperiod of 8 hours. I am heating 300 gallons of water with a 300W and its rarely on. If you dont believe me, I can pull the Apex graph that will clearly prove me right.

A more accurate statistic would be a 150W heater on 3 hours of your 8 hr photoperiod. That brings your monthly savings to $8.30 per month.

Youre also not taking the heat from the MH infiltrating the house, making the AC work harder/longer. Air conditioners pull BIG wattage.

Edit: You're also not taking into account the actinic supplementation you have to provide with your MHs. Whats that, a couple hundred more watts? What about bulb replacement? 2 quality MH bulbs plus 2-4 actinics = $200? So every year you could save $275-300.

Now, I'm not proposing to ditch your MH and go LED, but if your eon a high tier utility or you are just starting up a tank, LED has substantial money savings.

Clearly you can't see who I quoted. I quoted the guy with a 75 gallon tank no duh your electricity bill will be higher and you will have more savings.

 

[karsseboom]

Math is hard. Economies of scale even harder.

Yeah I guess reading is hard for you too. You didnt read the thread did you? He thought I quoted him and he was wrong.

 

[hvacman250]

Clearly you can't see who I quoted. I quoted the guy with a 75 gallon tank no duh your electricity bill will be higher and you will have more savings.

You quoted power boat jim who, according to his signature, has a 180 gallon tank. You may want to re-read the thread. Post 23 is where you quoted him.

However, I proved to you how LEDS will in fact save you money. Around $8 per month on your 60 gallon tank; $250-300 factoring in bulb replacement. You said switching to LEDs wouldnt save you money; I proved to you it will. I dont really care to argue anymore. Math doesn't lie. LEDs are MUCH more efficient than MH in terms of wattage used. And factoring in heat from a MH light is a very poor way of heating a tank. It's MUCH more efficient to heat the water with heaters.

 

[karsseboom]

Take a look back and see who said that. It wasn't him it was the person before him who had a 75 gallon tank. Second me buying leds would save me about 4 dollars a month maybe less I only run mh for 5 hours a day with two t5 actinic. My house is on the colder side so the heater would be on all the time if it weren't for the mh. Do they use less watts? Will it saver money? I highly doubt it. Btw I have a 300watt heater...


Btw I have done 2 set of diy LEDs so I'm not against them. I jut don't see them good for saving money. The only thing they have it the ability to dim and color combo.

 

[NatureNerd]

from Nature Nerd

30 to 40 dollars a month ummm yeah right dude. My whole tank uses that much per month with everything. If I switched to led I wouldnt save anything. My heater would be on more and the mh I run only cost 14 bucks a month...how much would I really save from LEDs?

Wow, this seems like a very strong response. It seems to question my honesty. I will assume it just reads that way.

So, MH's are the right answer for many tanks. I used them for over 15 years. They work well. I would not recommend LED's to anyone just based on electric bills. Good luck with your reef.

I am surprised your tank is so cheap to run. I am jealous too. Perhaps you don't pay the same 0.3418 rate per kWHr that I do for the last 120 - 200 kWHr of consumption (PG&E 200% to 300% of baseline). Perhaps you didn't run old inefficient ballasts like I did. Perhaps you didn't run two VHO supplements with your MH's like I did. Perhaps you didn't run your lights 13 hrs per day like I do. Perhaps because of my closed canopy and sound insulated stand, my tank doesn't need to run the heaters pretty much at all. Yes, pumps do add heat to the water and maybe that is all that is needed to keep my tank at 78 degrees. My fans never turn on much anymore and my heater is off from 2:00 until near midnight this winter. Late night, it runs 10%. In the summer it never comes on. Perhaps all these factors are different. I will not imply that you did not do the math, I'll just say that my reef is different than yours. My statement was about my reef, not yours.

 

[hvacman250]

Wow, this seems like a very strong response. It seems to question my honesty. I will assume it just reads that way.

So, MH's are the right answer for many tanks. I used them for over 15 years. They work well. I would not recommend LED's to anyone just based on electric bills. Good luck with your reef.

I am surprised your tank is so cheap to run. I am jealous too. Perhaps you don't pay the same 0.3418 rate per kWHr that I do for the last 120 - 200 kWHr of consumption (PG&E 200% to 300% of baseline). Perhaps you didn't run old inefficient ballasts like I did. Perhaps you didn't run two VHO supplements with your MH's like I did. Perhaps you didn't run your lights 13 hrs per day like I do. Perhaps because of my closed canopy and sound insulated stand, my tank doesn't need to run the heaters pretty much at all. Yes, pumps do add heat to the water and maybe that is all that is needed to keep my tank at 78 degrees. My fans never turn on much anymore and my heater is off from 2:00 until near midnight this winter. Late night, it runs 10%. In the summer it never comes on. Perhaps all these factors are different. I will not imply that you did not do the math, I'll just say that my reef is different than yours. My statement was about my reef, not yours.

No, he doesnt believe you, just like he doesnt believe the math where I showed him LED savings. Remember when your parents told you "you'd argue that the sky wasnt blue"? Same deal here it seems.

. Do they use less watts? Will it saver money? I highly doubt it. Btw I have a 300watt heater...


QUOTE]

Do they use less watts? Absolutely. About 50% less.
Will it saver money? Absolutely. See above.
I highly doubt it. Doubting does nothing. I've mathmatically proven it saves.
Btw I have a 300watt heater...which would run about 5% of your 5 hr photoperiod.

 

[alton]

Guys I think what most of you are missing is what each of us has to pay for electricity. If you have to pay 34 cents a KWH you can not afford MH. But in my case I looked at LED on my 300 but at 6 LED lights it did not come out to replace my 3 x 250w MH in the short or long run at 10 cents a KWH. If I had to pay 34 cents I definitely would not have a 300 much less MH lighting.

 

[power boat jim]

Post deleted.

 

[NatureNerd]

Guys I think what most of you are missing is what each of us has to pay for electricity. If you have to pay 34 cents a KWH you can not afford MH. But in my case I looked at LED on my 300 but at 6 LED lights it did not come out to replace my 3 x 250w MH in the short or long run at 10 cents a KWH. If I had to pay 34 cents I definitely would not have a 300 much less MH lighting.

Yep. Every reef tank and every situation is different.

 

[hvacman250]

Guys I think what most of you are missing is what each of us has to pay for electricity. If you have to pay 34 cents a KWH you can not afford MH. But in my case I looked at LED on my 300 but at 6 LED lights it did not come out to replace my 3 x 250w MH in the short or long run at 10 cents a KWH. If I had to pay 34 cents I definitely would not have a 300 much less MH lighting.

Actually, I am not missing that point at all. Thats what I am paying as well; $0.10/kWH.

Let's look at an honest example for people who may search this in the future, but let me preface by saying this:

I am not pro-LED or pro-MH. I set-up my tank w/ a DIY LED fixture, but I have all the components I am going to list in storage in case I want to switch to metal halide. When I set-up my tank, alot of people were on the fence about whether LED will grow corals as well as MH, so I bought barely used MH equipment since so many people were switching to MH. I have it if I ever feel the need. This tank has been growing SPS for almost a year, so I honestly dont feel I'll ever need to switch. Also, utility bills mean nothing to me. If MH grew corals better, but cost an additional $100 in utilities, so be it. I spend 3-4x that per month on aquarium related stuff. so...

I have a 220 6'x2'x30" high tank. Option #1 is 3x 250w radium supplementing w/ 4x80W T5s. Option #2 is 120 LEDs, dimmed by an Apex. With a par meter on hand, myself and 3 other experienced SPS growers set-up my LEDs to match the outout of 250W MH. That number is 68% using 3W Crees w/ 60* (maybe 70*, cant remember) mounted 14" off the water line.
I run 12 hour RBs w/ a 2.5 hr ramp up and 2.5 hr ramp down. 9 hour whites w/ the same 2.5 ramp up/down.

For the example, lets run 10 hrs of actinics w/ 6 hours of MH.

LED 60 blues, 60 whites: blues during 2.5 hr ramp up = 39% 70.2W
blues at 68% for 7 hrs = 122.4W
ramp down = 70.2W
whites ramp up = 70.2W
whites @ 4 hrs at 68% = 122.4W
ramp down = 70.2W
$6.15 per month is what my LED usage costs me with ramping up/down @ $0.10/kWH used.

MH
3x 250W= 750Wx 6 hrs/day = $13.50 per month
4x80W T5s x 10 hrs per day = 9.60
$23.10 w/ MH/T5 actinics /month

$16.95/month savings in this scenario MH/actinic vs. Leds

To try and be as accurate as possible, lets factor in the MH heat scenario. Lets assume I have to run 300W of heater to make up for heat no gained from MH lighting. As a guess, said 300W heater has to run 30% of the 6 hr photoperiod where the MH would have supplied the water with heat.
That equals $1.62 per month. This brings the savings down to
$15.33 or $184 per year

LEDs are advertised at running (properly cooled) 50,000 hrs before spectrum starts to shift. Thats 11.5 years at 12 hrs per day.

2nd year we have to buy 3 250@ radiums @$80 = $240
4x80W T5s at $24.00=$96.00
Total bulb replacement $336/year

Money "wasted" with MH/actinic at 1st bulb replacement $520
3rd bulb replacement $1560
6th (year 7) $3120
9th (year 10) $4680
10th (start of 11th year, LEDs assumingly starting to shift) $5200

Notes to consider:

-Will LEDs last 11.5 years?
-Heat from MH in the summer will make your AC run longer, and AC pulls BIG wattage.
-Your house temperature where the tank is/what temp your tank runs at will have some impact on cost.
-Does LED grow coral as well as MH?
-All these statistics are based on 10 cent per kWH. California and some other state have prices in the 30-40 cent per kWH. Take my figures and multiply them by 3 or 4 and see the difference.
-On start-up, I built my LED set-up cheaper than I could have bought new MH equipment. Selection of LED choices will affect long term potential savings.

There you go, folks. I've tried to be as fair as possible. If Ive made an error, please correct me; I am human and mess up occasionally:worried: As for MH equipment picked, thats what I would have used myself.

Happy reefing!

 

[NatureNerd]

...

There you go, folks. I've tried to be as fair as possible. If Ive made an error, please correct me; I am human and mess up occasionally:worried: As for MH equipment picked, thats what I would have used myself.

Sounds like you did the same thing I did before you made a decision. I created a fairly large spreadsheet to calculate the complete costs for my tank with both my existing lights and LED's. I came up with a three year break even time. If my LED's last longer than that, then I saved money. My calculations were conservative as the ability to dim or run at low power and still enjoy viewing the tank means the I only run at peak power for 5-6 hours rather than 10. I used to run supplements only for 1.5 hrs at dawn and dusk and then halides for 10 hrs in between. Works for me so far, approaching the one year mark.

 

[hvacman250]

On another note, if anybody wants to do the calculations themselves, or to knwo how I came up with my numbers, do this:

Find the WATTAGE, usually listed in WATTS, on the motor, pump, light, etc. Or find the amperage (AMPS) Voltage, typically 120V in the US, X amps = watts.

So if a return pump is labeled as 60 watts and it runs 24/7.

60 watts x 24 hrs per day = 1440 watt hrs per day
Multiply this by 30 days in a month = 43220 watt hours per month
Divide this number by 1000 (power companies read kilowatt hours, or 100 watt hours)=43.22 kWH per month
Then multiply by your utility rate (for example 0.15). Call and ask them, or figure it out by your bill. Divide the $ amount by the kWH used.
At $0.15 per kWH, this pump would cost you $6.483 per month.

 

[power boat jim]

I looked at this way, the single biggest cost in a MAINTAINING a reef tank is lighting cost.Electricity was the largest cost of running MH lights. LEDs use about 1/2 the power of MH and produce about the same amount light. So right off the bat is a 50% savings on the biggest consumer of power.

Next are bulbs, cost about 250 dolllars a year for the MH and T5s I still run T5s with LEDs but only 2 hrs a day instead of 8. My bulb cost is now nearly nothing per year.

Last was the heat put into my house and tank from MH, I needed to run ductwork to my sump off my AC unit to keep the tank at 82 in the summer. This is no longer needed. All my AC goes to cooling the house now. This nets out about about $100 a year gain in energy cost since I dont have the MH heat in the winter.

Its interesting that 3 unrelated people all have had nearly identical documented savings using LEDs. I think MH is a great way to light a tank, used it for years. But, its time to get rid of the urban legends and myths about how LEDs dont work and more importantly for this thread are not cost effective.

 

[Garage1217]

Or quickly figure out how much your whole system costs or compare new and old systems with this excel doc It will quickly calculate your cost per hour, per day, per week, month and year.

www.garage1217.com/AQUARIUMCOSTCALCULATOR/AQUARIUMELECTRICALCOSTCALC.xlsx

Just add in your cost per KWH in the upper left box in red. Lots of other tools as well. Never built in a tiered function to note.

And as noted, a kill a watt EZ is your best friend to double check things as some manufacturers claims are pretty optimistic vs reality and some are actually lower which is awesome.