Vectra L1 performance and test

[slief]

Ha ha, I think you are guesstimsting way too much..ha ha.

Maybe..

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No.. I am actually using a head pressure calculator and the numbers I am providing are conservative. I think your head pressure with friction loss is actually higher than 10’. More like 11-12’ possibly more depending on the actual height of the return outlets :thumbsup:

FWIW, I am been doing tank installs for 30 years now. I also work for a pump manufacturer as you are probably aware. No need for me to guess. I am only trying to help.

 

[ohashimz]

No.. I am actually using a head pressure calculator and the numbers I am providing are conservative. I think your head pressure with friction loss is actually higher than 10'. More like 11-12' possibly more depending on the actual height of the return outlets [emoji106]

FWIW, I am been doing tank installs for 30 years now. I also work for a pump manufacturer as you are probably aware. No need for me to guess. I am only trying to help.

Lol. Cheers mate.

Can you share with me a picture or a drawing of simpler and less head pressure overflow in a tank?
Would be good for everyone here.

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[slief]

Lol.
Man why would union add head pressure? Its 1" union.
Ince again there is no elbow on the setup, there y fitting which present a much smoother transition from the pvc to the loc line.
Agree with you on the 3/4" impact.

This setup is the simplest possible plumbing for a tank overflow, absolutely the simplest.
No elbows, not unnecessary transitions, all vertical. Have one reduction which is the 3/4" which again every overflow would need to do).
Anyway, I think things are clear now and data showed us couppe of things....

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Fluid dynamics. Unions add friction. A union is NOT a smooth piece of pipe. There are joints. A union can add .25 to .50' of head pressure depending on the pump and line size. Heck, there is a difference in friction losses between regular PVC and Flex PVC because Flex PVC is not smooth inside but is kind of ribbed inside. Reductions create friction and also restriction. That 1" flow sensor is a reduction and akin to having a flapper check valve and it also has joints that create friction as well. It all adds up and that is something that most people don't realize.

 

[slief]

Lol. Cheers mate.

Can you share with me a picture or a drawing of simpler and less head pressure overflow in a tank?
Would be good for everyone here.

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There is no easy way to skin this. Your setup is simple enough. If it were me, I would have done things a bit different though to reduce head loss. I would have used a larger 1.25" flow sensor if it were available. I would have used a larger 1.25" union. I normally hard plumb things and with my return setup, my pump has a 1.5" output but I used 2" plumbing all the way to the top of the tank. This includes all union ballvalves and fittings. In my case, I split that 2" line off to a pair of 1" seaswirls. The increased plumbing size results in a major reduction in friction loss.

Since you are reducing down in your overflow, I would have used a 1" bulkhead in the bottom of the tank or even larger if I were having the tank custom made and a 1" or larger PVC wye inside the overflow connected to 1" 90* curved pipe where they attach to the overflows lockline bulkheads. Those locklines that you are using inside your overflow in place of 90* fittings aren't helping much if anything compared to an elbow since each joint on the lockline results in added friction and it all adds up.

 

[tkeracer619]

Slief nailed it. I haven't gotten to your questions yet as I was traveling last night. Head loss isn't just a matter of height above the pump, that is a major component but friction losses add up quick, especially when using soft tubing and barbs that restrict flow.

More than just head pressure is at play here, those sensors need laminer flow and when you force 1600gph through a 1in id pipe the water is traveling at almost 11ft per second. It isn't laminer at that point so the sensor is likely giving false readings as well as an increase in head losses due to friction. The RD3 is a nice pump but it costs double the vectra so I'm not sure that is a fair comparison.

No, I don't think ecotech needed to recall the L1 because the issue with the early pumps wasn't as widespead as you think. Mine still works fine, there are plenty of them out there that work fine. As consumers we don't have data on how many actually failed as a percentage so we have to assume that with ecotechs awesome cs that they would have recalled it if there was a high percentage of failures to pumps sold. I suspect most failures have been related to their operational environment and that is why you see some people have multiple failures while some have none. Either way, they extended the warranty to cover that failure, and I doubt a budget brand would do that.

In regards to measuring my water flow, I filled my coral flat with it but I don't care what the actual number is, it's mostly irrelevant as long as it's doing what I want. My plumbing is 1.5in ID so flow is laminer at 5fps, spa flex was used for bends to minimize losses, and the ouputs are 8x 3/4" loc line. At 70% it took about 4 minutes to fill 100gals so its roughly 1500gph which falls right in line with their flow chart.

 

[ohashimz]

All...what are we debating here exactly?
The post is about an issue I observed with vectra which lead me to evaluate vectra performance against other pumps.

My plumbing is simple and good representation of most of the tanks out there. Regardless of what you think head pressure is, or what's the hydro dynamics are, the data is simple:

- plumbing is simple and representative of most aquariums.

- vectra clocked 700gph at max speed meaning I lost 75% of vectra performance from head pressure

- RD3 that is spec'ed at the same flow rate as vectra clocked 1600gph on the same setup and head pressur3.
- the customer service feedback originally was wrong and blamed the setup(kind lik what this debate is heading) which turned out to be wrong.

That's all. This is the hard, measured data.

Correct....

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[ohashimz]

As for the recall, I wonder if you hear your carseat belt have very low chance of error and the manufacturer have admitted it...I wonder if you will have the same openion and think they should not recall and replace rather ask you to wait and see till you get in to accident to find out. Then they replace it for you.

Actually this is such a big deal with me, though I improved vectra flow a bit, I removed it from my system until I confirm if my vectra have the same design issue or not.
I cannot risk even the slightest chance that this pump fail when am not home and I have the system down waiting on a replacment.


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[ohashimz]

Forgot to list another data point.
- an old syncra 4.0 that is spec'ed as 900gph with zero head pressure clocked 550gph on the same setup..
- and my final data point, this is the 9th system I have setup at my place over the last 13 years...

I remind you again, all these measurments are at the same entry point of the same plumbing.

So, if you think my plumbing need to be better for vectra to work, please let me know what reefers should do...
But lets keep it real here, tanks, stand heights, return drill holes, bulk heads and return loc lines are all standard for home aquariums and every tank will have to use them. So let's not say for vectra to work on par with other pumps in the market. Reefers need to go do funky plumbing or build custom setups. Otherwise I will day if you care about flow then simply choosing better pump is more realistic. thus far I have not seen any solution to the head pressure that you both are refering to justify vectra failing to perform at..
If you say plumbing should improve please give us better plumbing suggestions so we all learn and adjust...
If you say you think vectra flow is great, please give us your measurment to understand what is good flow in your opinion.
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[slief]

Forgot to list another data point.
- an old syncra 4.0 that is spec'ed as 900gph with zero head pressure clocked 550gph on the same setup..
- and my final data point, this is the 9th system I have setup at my place over the last 13 years...

I remind you again, all these measurments are at the same entry point of the same plumbing.

So, if you think my plumbing need to be better for vectra to work, please let me know what reeferwa should do...
But lets keep it real here, tanks, return drill holes, block heads and return loc lines are all standard and every tank will have to use them. So let's not say for vectra to work on par with other pumps in the market. Reefers need to go do funky plumbing setups.this far I have not seen any solution to the head reasure that you both are justifying vectra failing to perform at..
Please give us better plumbing so we all learn and adjust...

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Different pumps handle head and friction loss differently and depending on a pumps output size as well as its max head pressure and the flow curve of the pump the ultimate head pressure can be different. So the same plumbing can result in different head loss from one pump to the next depending on the pumps output size as well is it’s pressure output.

The Vectra has a 1” output so reducing it down to 3/4” will result in greater friction loss and ulimately greater head pressure than the Syncra 4.0 which is natively a 3/4” output. As such the actual head pressure for the Syncra (with your plumbing) is lower (closer to 6’ of head) than it is for the Vectra L1 which is in excess of 11’ of head. Conversely, the Vectra M1 would result in lower head loss with your plumbing. Don’t get me wrong, I understand your frustration but I am also trying to explain why differerent pumps have different results given your plumbing constraints. If the Vectra was plumbed with 1” pipe all the way to the display including the bulkheads and you used a larger flow sensor, you would have much more flow due to reduced friction/head loss.

Now having said that, based on my calculations of your head loss which are rough and based on a similar pump, the flow from the L1 should be higher than the 700 GPH that your flow sensor is reporting which would put your head loss closer to 14’ if I based your head loss on the reported flow alone. Since I don’t know the exact pressure output of the L1 and can’t calculate the impact of the locline which is more substantial than you may realize, there is a margin of error there that could result in higher head pressure (due to friction losses) than I am calculating. Either way, it might be worth taking the Vectra apart and giving it a deep cleaning to see if that helps. Depending on the age of the flow sensor, those too need cleaing from time to time. But like I said, there are a number of factors that impact ultimate head loss and the plumbing is one factor as is the pumps output size and it’s pressure output capability so ultimate head loss will be different from one pump to the next.


Anyhow, as you can see, I work for a competitor of Ecotech. I have no dog in this fight. I am simply trying to explain why you may be seeing the results you are seeing with this particular pump. And I have nothing against the Vectras. Ecotech makes great products and backs them with great support You will find that I am very unbiased which is why I chimed in here to lend some insite. I am simply trying to explain why you are seeing the results you are seeing and lend you some advice which might improve things for you.

 

[ohashimz]

Different pumps handle head and friction loss differently and depending on a pumps output size as well as its max head pressure and the flow curve of the pump the ultimate head pressure can be different. So the same plumbing can result in different head loss from one pump to the next depending on the pumps output size as well is it's pressure output.

The Vectra has a 1" output so reducing it down to 3/4" will result in greater friction loss and ulimately greater head pressure than the Syncra 4.0 which is natively a 3/4" output. As such the actual head pressure for the Syncra (with your plumbing) is lower (closer to 6' of head) than it is for the Vectra L1 which is in excess of 11' of head. Conversely, the Vectra M1 would result in lower head loss with your plumbing. Don't get me wrong, I understand your frustration but I am also trying to explain why differerent pumps have different results given your plumbing constraints. If the Vectra was plumbed with 1" pipe all the way to the display including the bulkheads and you used a larger flow sensor, you would have much more flow due to reduced friction/head loss.

Now having said that, based on my calculations of your head loss which are rough and based on a similar pump, the flow from the L1 should be higher than the 700 GPH that your flow sensor is reporting which would put your head loss closer to 14' if I based your head loss on the reported flow alone. Since I don't know the exact pressure output of the L1 and can't calculate the impact of the locline which is more substantial than you may realize, there is a margin of error there that could result in higher head pressure (due to friction losses) than I am calculating. Either way, it might be worth taking the Vectra apart and giving it a deep cleaning to see if that helps. Depending on the age of the flow sensor, those too need cleaing from time to time. But like I said, there are a number of factors that impact ultimate head loss and the plumbing is one factor as is the pumps output size and it's pressure output capability so ultimate head loss will be different from one pump to the next.


Anyhow, as you can see, I work for a competitor of Ecotech. I have no dog in this fight. I am simply trying to explain why you may be seeing the results you are seeing with this particular pump. And I have nothing against the Vectras. Ecotech makes great products and backs them with great support You will find that I am very unbiased which is why I chimed in here to lend some insite. I am simply trying to explain why you are seeing the results you are seeing and lend you some advice which might improve things for you.

You know all standard tanks requires bulk head that transition to 3/4" right?
Byw am asking here not challanging. Is my understanding correct?
If answer is yes, then vectra is not suitable to standard tanks....I know am being too harsh here, I say again I hold ecotech to such high standard.
I buy them over everyone else...true word

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[ohashimz]

Btw appreciate all the knowledge you are sharing with me...I am an engineer and absolut data driven human being. I am drinking all this knowledge that is being dropped here...so thank you

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[EcoTech Marine]

The head curve published by us is without the quick couplers. The native output of an L1 without quick coupler is actually 1.5". Reducing it to 3/4" is a pretty big reduction. Additionally, removing the input quick coupler will inprove performance. The native input is 2" without coupler. Also, placing the pump on a watt meter is a vital piece of information to understand whats really going on with your system, regardless of the product used.

Pumps are not a simple device to install and extract the maximum potential from. Your original post assumed the pump was weak but it actually turned out to be user error as you are the only who selected the max flow when performing caibration then measured this maximum and blamed the pump. L1 volutes are designed for larger systems than a simple return function and given your plumbing it may not have been the most appropriate choice.

Other people are chiming in here to help you but I get the impression from your posts here and your posts on another popular forum that you have made up your mind. That is your decision and I respect that but at this point it seems like we're beating a dead horse.

 

[ohashimz]

Again I remind you that most standard tanks have a drill hole for a bulk heads that transition to 3/4" loc line hoes.
My pvc out of the bulk head is 1", but all the line locs hose in the market are 3/4" meaning there is no escaping they eventually we need 3/4" at the end of the return line.

Not to beat on ecotech any more:
here is the conclusion am getting from reading between the lines:
Saying not all pumps are the same for me means: this is what it is, the performance am observing is vectra l1 capabilities.

Saying vectra have 1.5" outlet and reduction impact vectra means: Vectra is not the right pump for standard tanks, and not suitable for tanks that requires above 700 800 gph return. Which if we apply the 5 to 10 times turn around means anything above 50 to 100gallon tanks.

I now feel much more at peace buying and RD3 which is not that much cost diffrence from vectra, or syncra 5.0 which more than half the price of vectra...
I just wished such data was available before I spent 500$ on vectra ha ha.

I am still super happy with every other ecotech I own which are many...

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[slief]

You know all standard tanks requires bulk head that transition to 3/4" right?
Byw am asking here not challanging. Is my understanding correct?
If answer is yes, then vectra is not suitable to standard tanks....I know am being too harsh here, I say again I hold ecotech to such high standard.
I buy them over everyone else...true word

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Different size tanks have different bulkhead fittings. I normally specify the bulkhead sizes for my desired flow in conjunction with the pumps I am going to be using and pretty much all of my installs are custom so I get the luxury of specifying those kinds of details. 1" bulkheads going through the bottom are pretty standard though on mid size tanks just as are the 3/4" bulkheads for the return lines for locline and I do think there are things you can do to improve the flow by making some plumbing changes. Just increasing the size of the flow meter will have an impact right out of the gate. Increasing the union fitting below the bulkhead to a 1.25" or 1.5" union will help a bit too. Reducing the amount of lock line in the over flow and going to a 3/4" curved 90 or even an elbow would help some. Heck, going to 1" elbows connected to the back of those lockline bulkheads and running 1" from the Wye to the 1" elbows would be an improvement over the 3/4" you have in there now since the 3/4" barb fittings create a lot of friction losses too. Point being that there are ways to improve the efficiency of your plumbing which will result in decreased head loss and greater flow/efficiency from your pump.

That said, the L1 is a larger pump with a larger diameter output so reducing it down will have more of an impact on the L1 than it would on a smaller pump such as the M1 which I eluded to in my previous responses. In this case, the Vectra L1 may not be the best choice for your application unless you can reduce friction losses. The Vectra M1 may result in similar performance because it would see less head loss (with your existing plumbing) due to it being a 3/4" output. If you were running a manifold to feed other devices such as reactors or a chiller, then the L1 could be split and you could take advantage of the flow without having as much of an impact on the return flow as diverting some of the flow would in theory reduce the friction losses up above. I know that may seem counter intuitive but much of that pumps output is being bottlenecked by the plumbing so you could rob flow from it for a manifold without impacting the return flow much if any.

 

[ohashimz]

I was referring to the loc lines. I have never seen loc lines more than 3/4"...these are the standards

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[slief]

The head curve published by us is without the quick couplers. The native output of an L1 without quick coupler is actually 1.5”. The native input is 2” without coupler.

That puts his head with friction losses closer to 14’ based on my calculations which is more in line with his flow meter readings. By the way Tim, I commend you for chiming in here. I’ve always put Ecotech on a pedestal when it comes to quality and support and it’s good to see your input and going above and beyond to help him. Especially on the weekend. :beer:

I was referring to the loc lines. I have never seen loc lines more than 3/4"...these are the standards

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Me neither. I wish they made 1” loclines!

 

[ohashimz]

So my earlier conclusions hold ground lol...oh man I had the wrong impression of vectra...

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[slief]

So my earlier conclusions hold ground lol...oh man I had the wrong impression of vectra...

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I don't think this is a case of the Vectra falling short. I think it's a case of not understanding the impacts of friction on actual head loss. As I said above, the output size of the pump has a direct impact on the impact plumbing will have on ultimate head/friction loss. I'd bet switching that flow meter from a 1" to a 1.5" would make a huge difference. I have spare ones here and took one and blew through it and they are surprisingly restrictive when it comes to friction loss due to the paddle wheel. Also, like Tim suggested, try taking the union nut off the intake of the pump and see if that has any impact on the flow. It's worth a try since you have this pump installed internally.

 

[ohashimz]

I don't think this is a case of the Vectra falling short. I think it's a case of not understanding the impacts of friction on actual head loss. As I said above, the output size of the pump has a direct impact on the impact plumbing will have on ultimate head/friction loss. I'd bet switching that flow meter from a 1" to a 1.5" would make a huge difference. I have spare ones here and took one and blew through it and they are surprisingly restrictive when it comes to friction loss due to the paddle wheel. Also, like Tim suggested, try taking the union nut off the intake of the pump and see if that has any impact on the flow. It's worth a try since you have this pump installed internally.

Disagree.
If we know my system is standard and speak to most of tanks out there.
If we know that other pumps perform way better on my system than vectra.

Then my conclusion is true. I guarantee you if ppl including yourself actually measured your vectra u will be suprised.

Otherwise someone should give me a solution that I can apply on my standard 160g tank other than put your tank on the ground.after all this analysis and hydro dynamic calculation I do not see a suggestion to my standard system...I am willing to change my plum ingredients conpletly as far as I have a solution thay do not requir me to build custom tank lol...

From a customer point of view, my conclusion is correct since other pumps do not have this issue. that means other pumps more suitable to such tanks.

From technixhal stand point and from ecotech stand point, of course there is a reason why performance is what it is..but should this matter to customers? Would that justify spending such money on pump that do not output 75% of its rated flow??? I think not.

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[slief]

Disagree.
If we know my system is standard and speak to most of tanks out there.
If we know that other pumps perform way better on my system than vectra.

Then my conclusion is true. I guarantee you if ppl including yourself actually measured your vectra u will be suprised.

Otherwise someone should give me a solution that I can apply on my standard 160g tank other than put your tank on the ground.after all this analysis and hydro dynamic calculation I do not see a suggestion to my standard system...I am willing to change my plum ingredients conpletly as far as I have a solution thay do not requir me to build custom tank lol...

From a customer point of view, my conclusion is correct since other pumps do not have this issue. that means other pumps more suitable to such tanks.

From technixhal stand point and from ecotech stand point, of course there is a reason why performance is what it is..but should this matter to customers? Would that justify spending such money on pump that do not output 75% of its rated flow??? I think not.

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And again, while I understand your contention, I think the Vectra is performing per its spec given your combined head and friction losses. Reduce your friction losses and your flow will increase. Obviously that will not change your point of view but I don't think this is a case of the pump not performing per its spec. I think this is a case of friction losses robbing the pump of its potential. And I have given your some plumbing suggestions which will absolutely improve things for you.