Venomous Tangs? I thought it was a rumor!

[Semper Fi 1959]

http://www.livescience.com/php/multimedia/imagegallery/igviewer.php?gid=55

Scroll through these 'venomous fish' pics...you'll notice the Naso Tang and Hippo Tang. I have heard through the years that some tangs are venomous, but also remember hearing that it is a myth.

Something along the lines of the tangs razor sharp spines or 'scapels' possibly having some bacteria present so when and if you get cut by your tang (which I have) then the bacteria on the spine can infect the fresh wound.

Now reading this little article and seeing the pics that I linked above...is there something I am missing? Are they venomous or not?

I'm not too scared to just THROW my arm/hand in the tank with my tangs, and I've had both that are mentioned, it's the rabbitfish, lionfish, and scorpionfish, etc that I worry about.

I don't much worry about stonefish or any of that sort, cus how often do you see them? Although my LFS had one once...it was in the back out of view in the 'hospital room'. It had a BIG sign on the tank saying stay away and all of that. I guess it's the most venomous creature on the entire planet. Is that true??

 

[Sk8r]

Most of the venomous ones we keep won't hurt much for a creature our size. Some tangs are poisonous to eat, I believe: some have a toxic slime coat, if I remember correctly. But you're not going to die of it unless you pan-fry the poor thing. The rabbit doesn't bother some people much, but I have personally seen a guy with a hand 50% necrotic black that didn't inspire me to hand-catch that fellow. I put the lions in the class of the rabbit (when working with mine, I put leather gloves on under the over-the-elbows to move rock: they lean against rock and go camo when scared)---and in general, if you know you are working with a venemous fish, have a printout in your stand that you could take with you to the ER should you have an accident. The ER doc won't likely have a clue without something to inform him on the chemistry. The 'venomous blenny' is a little guy, about the size of your pinky finger, not too bad, but they nip clams.
It's just a good idea to use gloves with worms, use nets or dipping containers with genuinely venomous fish and inverts, and just don't pan-fry any tangs (also use dippers for them: the tails do mean business!) and you'll likely be fine. One other note: I believe marine catfish also pack a really painful punch: top spine.

 

[Semper Fi 1959]

Yes, you're right...the marine catfish should be on the list. Although I don't think it was an 'end all' list. Just a few. As I said, I was just surprised to see someone actually noting in scientific literature that some tangs were venomous.

I've read things by Sprung, Calfo, Fenner, et al. that say they AREN'T venomous.

Why the discrepency?

 

[harman]

I have one book on reef fish that states Clown Tangs are venomous

 

[ludnix]

Re: Venomous Tangs? I thought it was a rumor!

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13201257#post13201257 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Semper Fi 1959
http://www.livescience.com/php/multimedia/imagegallery/igviewer.php?gid=55
Something along the lines of the tangs razor sharp spines or 'scapels' possibly having some bacteria present so when and if you get cut by your tang (which I have) then the bacteria on the spine can infect the fresh wound.

There's a reason they are called "surgeon fish" :lol:

 

[SkyPapa]

Re: Venomous Tangs? I thought it was a rumor!

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13201257#post13201257 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Semper Fi 1959
I guess it's the most venomous ...lia is far worse as is the blue ring octopus.

 

[mdrc]

hippo tangs have a very mild venom in there dorsal spines but dont quote me on that i just heard that from a guy who delivers the fish

 

[mdrc]

o and the thing about the bacteria on there scalple is true allthought i dont know if its a bacteria or a venom

 

[joeycadre]

i was hit/slashed by a naso when i worked at an lfs. it hurt very badly and didn't heal all that well. it took a long time to heal i mean.

 

[steve70]

never knew the hippo was poisoness, i got poked by mine one time washed my hand real good and put neo on it. it was sore for a couple days. but it healed nicely.

 

[greenbean36191]

Why the discrepency?

Because it's poorly researched and a lot of the research is inconclusive. The only reference I can find to venom in blue tangs is the study summarized in the article which is only from 2006. The same study found no venom gland in other tangs though and doesn't even mention Naso, which I can't find any reference for concerning venom.

They found no venom gland in Acanthurus pyroferus or Zebrasoma flavescens, but there were grooves in the scalpel for the delivery of venom, suggesting that the venom gland might have just been small and hard to find or that it may only be in juveniles. They did find venom glands in Paracanthurus hepatus.

 

[mrwilson]

"... personally seen a guy with a hand 50% necrotic black ..." Yikes! I knew rabbits were venomous, but I had no idea they could do that. I wonder if that person was allergic to the venom? (Of course, no way to know that until it's a bit too late....)

"... if you know you are working with a venomous fish, have a printout in your stand that you could take with you to the ER should you have an accident..." Great idea. Anybody know a link with a write-up on the antidote to rabbitfish venom?

 

[Semper Fi 1959]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13202955#post13202955 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
Because it's poorly researched and a lot of the research is inconclusive. The only reference I can find to venom in blue tangs is the study summarized in the article which is only from 2006. The same study found no venom gland in other tangs though and doesn't even mention Naso, which I can't find any reference for concerning venom.

They found no venom gland in Acanthurus pyroferus or Zebrasoma flavescens, but there were grooves in the scalpel for the delivery of venom, suggesting that the venom gland might have just been small and hard to find or that it may only be in juveniles. They did find venom glands in Paracanthurus hepatus.

Do you think it's at all possible that these venom glands are 'ancient' and the fish evolved to not have to use venom therefore not producing any anymore? I remember seeing pictures of fossils of Powder Blue Tangs that were MILLIONS of years old. I'm just saying that I'm wondering if they have evolved over time to not need the venom therefore don't really have any present - yet still have the gland.

I guess if that were the case it would be like you and I with tonsils. Or human men with adams apples. The list goes on of creatures sporting something that has no use...but I imagine it once did.

P.S. I've been wanting to ask you for quite sometime now about your signature - what does it mean? And also that I did my little Hawaii tour in the Corps back in the day. I called Kaneohe Bay home for quite a bit. My friends were jealous...family too. Then I finally told them that the scenery wears off on you (you get used to seeing it - at least I did) and then you realize you're stuck on an island. Can't exactly get in your car and drive to another state. At one point I was expecting to run into MaryAnne, the Skipper, a movie star...

Although Wakiki was a good little trip. (or so I remember, I was usually wasted both going to and coming from Wakiki - and the native somoans HATED us...but that's for a different thread) My biggest regret is not getting over to Pearl Harbor. I managed to go to the Pro Bowl however. LOL They practically give those tickets away. And then they have everyone sit on the same side of the stadium - the side opposite the camera so it looks full. Not many people go to Hawaii for vacation or honeymoon or what not and go to a football game...

Oh and since you can't become a Marine and not know how to swim...and since I feel like I'm a frog - maybe even a fish - I decided to swim at the Pipeline. God what young people do... Everyone told me not to, that no matter how good of a swimmer I THOUGHT I was, the Pipeline would eat me up. Well I tried a body board (didn't even attempt a surf board) and couldn't even stay on it. So I just swam out. And out. And out. Out of NOWHERE a friggen 750 foot wave came in and literally picked me up in the air and then down I went. I couldn't get to the surface, I couldn't "find up", I couldn't BREATHE. I know you hear about this, but it was euphoric. I was actually at peace for what seemed like minutes but was probably a split second. I really honestly and truely was at peace with myself, my life etc and was ok with dieing. Then the wave went back out and shot me up onto the sand - HARD. hahahaha I sat there kind of confused looking around trying to figure out what happened and here I am just sitting in sand. 5 seconds earlier I was up to the Pearly Gates and now there isn't water within 30 feet of me. I'm literally laughing right now thinking about it. Oh well...wish I was young and 'macho' again. :lol:

And I won't even mention how pale my complexion is. I can go outside in the summer in the states and get a mild burn after being outside for hours. Not in Hawaii (nor Yuma Arizona) though. I went without sunscreen (tough guy) for maybe an hour and a half to two hours MAX. I had trouble putting my uniform on the next day. I actually knew guys that went to sick bay because they were burned so bad. They couldn't dress, couldn't work, couldn't sleep... then they got punished. "You should know better than to not wear sunscreen". One guy in particular that was so bad got charged with destruction of government property!!

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13202955#post13202955 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
Because it's poorly researched and a lot of the research is inconclusive. The only reference I can find to venom in blue tangs is the study summarized in the article which is only from 2006. The same study found no venom gland in other tangs though and doesn't even mention Naso, which I can't find any reference for concerning venom.

They found no venom gland in Acanthurus pyroferus or Zebrasoma flavescens, but there were grooves in the scalpel for the delivery of venom, suggesting that the venom gland might have just been small and hard to find or that it may only be in juveniles. They did find venom glands in Paracanthurus hepatus.

An evolutionary remnant, if that's the correct terminology, seems like another possibility.

 

[greenbean36191]

Sure, the glands and grooves could be vestigial, but we know that they're functional in rabbitfish, which are closely related, so there's no a priori assumption that the machinery doesn't work in these guys too. That's why it's inconclusive.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13203297#post13203297 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Semper Fi 1959
Do you think it's at all possible that these venom glands are 'ancient' and the fish evolved to not have to use venom therefore not producing any anymore? I remember seeing pictures of fossils of Powder Blue Tangs that were MILLIONS of years old. I'm just saying that I'm wondering if they have evolved over time to not need the venom therefore don't really have any present - yet still have the gland.

Or, even more interestingly, if the venom glands haven't evolved yet, or are in the process of evolving. This is one of the tricky things of evolution. For an animal to be successfully venomous it has to evolve venom glands AND a delivery system, one without the other doesn't do much good. Now evolution says all this is just happening by accident and chance, and if it turns out to be helpful it stays. But what are the chances the gland and delivery system evolve at the same time successfully?

 

[Sk8r]

re online research: google the name of the fish, then read the more and more esoteric articles...SOMEONE will say something about the chemistry of the venom, sooner or later, and that is what the doctor needs: needs to know how the venom acts, and what it's like that he might be familiar with, which he could treat.
Highlighting that section in yellow is not a bad notion either: ERs are crazy places with a lot of confusion.
The guy I saw with the messed up hand---I hope to goodness was under a doctor's care, though I didn't know him personally and didn't ask, because that's not minor.
I can surmise from dealing with spiderbites of similiar appearance that the body shuts down circulation to the area, hence the necrosis and probably a lot of opportune infections as immune response in that area goes flat. The fiddleback is bad at that. And yet some people don't react to fiddleback venom, or only react strongly once.
In the case of rabbitfish and their ilk, I would not want to experiment to see which sort of individual I am.

 

[myerst2]

Semper fi what on earth are you talking about? Too much time with out O2? Tim

 

[greenbean36191]

Or, even more interestingly, if the venom glands haven't evolved yet, or are in the process of evolving.

Well rabbitfish are the older group, so it looks like being venomous is the ancestral condition and some tangs may have secondarily lost functionality.

Now evolution says all this is just happening by accident and chance, and if it turns out to be helpful it stays. But what are the chances the gland and delivery system evolve at the same time successfully?

The glands and delivery system don't have to evolve at the same time at all. All fish have fin rays, so the delivery system already existed and had a function without the venom gland. In reptiles, the evolution of delivery systems is pretty well studied and you see the whole range from regular teeth that create openings in the skin to allow venomous saliva to seep in, grooved teeth that channel the venom to the wounds, and finally hollow fangs where the groove in the tooth has closed off to form an injection apparatus. Each step represents an advantage over the other. Even without a delivery system, a venom would be a poison and still serves a protective function as is evident by all the organisms that are poisonous but not venomous. I don't think anyone has done any work really looking at the evolution of the gland in this case, but in most cases it's just the modification of a gland that already exists like salivary or mucous glands.