Weird Ozone Problem

I don't know what you mean specifically by "change the charge". Ozone breaks up compounds, and it might create a couple of charged ions from something uncharged, or do something similar.

"Amphipathic" means hydrophilic on one end and hydrophobic on the other. Hydrophobic compounds can be skimmed, too, by being "squeezed" out of the water onto bubble surfaces, as far as I can understand from the article posted.

I'm not sure what you mean by "ORP over 400 could mean oxidants". As long as there's oxygen in a tank, there's at least one kind of oxidant. There will be others, too.
 
Ah.... Amphipathic, so that's what that means. A new(and valuable) word! I still have not read that article. I read fast but comprehend slow, so I will need a few minutes wide open to read that one. Looks good though, definitely the kind of thing I like to read. The quote below is from something I read. A paper written by some guys with 1000 gpm skimmers and chromatographs.

"Small organic and inorganic particles of like electrostatic charge will repel each other and thus be held in suspension in the water column, creating a haze and adding to DOM. By applying a VERY SMALL dose of ozone, the charge of SOME of the particles can be changed, bringing about their destabilization. When a higher (disinfection) dose of ozone is used in a Foam Fractionator, the charges of all suspended particles are altered and the benefit of microflocculation is lost. And ozone begins to break apart the carbon bonds of the long-chain molecules that are adhering to bubble surfaces, the pieces go back into solution."

This paper is about ten years old. But I just talked to the lead author a couple months ago on this very subject, and nothing has changed. I can't really name them or link the paper without permission. And I won't ask. I was picked on a little before(not this author), and the line was "œwhy do you want to waste your time fooling around on a hobby forum". So I don't want the chance to embarrass myself.

But there are a few reasons to fool with hobbyist. One is if you can weed through some non-sense there is a lot to be learned here. Lots of smart people here. Another reason is that a hobbyist can try something new without several committee meetings and hundreds of pages of documentation. So it's good for the pro's to keep up with what the hobbyist is thinking. And the hobbyist should keep an eye on what the pros are doing. I'm in charge of a facility where you need a ladder to clean the skimmer cup. Except that they clean themselves. And I'm using six pounds of ozone a day. And want more.

--John
 
Oh yeah, oxidants. When ozone reacts with sea water oxidants are produced. It happens fast and it is likely that most of the benefit we would give to ozone actually comes from the secondary oxidants. Ozone will spontaneously turn back to oxygen but these other oxidants last and are called persistent oxidants. I think they last until they contact something that can reduce them. I mentioned chlorine before and it can be created some, but most of the oxidants would be the Br- stuff. Like bromine, bromite, bromate and hypobromous acid.

The problem comes because we try to strip as many of the reducing compounds as possible with the skimmer. Then we make these oxidants in the same place. If we use too much ozone we make more oxidants than can be consumed by reducers in the foam fractioner effluent. And oxidants could reach animals. Or we burn up the carbon we are supposed to have between the skimmer and the animals. There is no cheap way to test for oxidants at the levels that would already be a chronic health problem for sensitive animals.

--John
 
UPDATE.

So yesterday i went to clean the skimmer cup. This requires release of the quick disconnect which connects the hose between the skimmer cup and the T fitting on the venturi where the hose from my ozone generator is also connected. This T fitting is supposed to be ozone safe. As I unclipped the quick disconnect and pulled it apart, the T fitting broke apart in a soft crumbly way, right at the joints.

Sooo…. not sure if this has anything to do with my issues. Is this from the ozone generator running 24/7? Was it really pumping out ozone but there was a clog somewhere? Is this unrelated and was going to give out anyway? Interesting. Tomorrow the new cell arrives from Ozotech, but first I'm going to get a new T fitting and hook it all back up as-is and see if there is any difference before installing the new cell.

I talked to Jeff at LifeReef and he says no one has had this problem with the ozone fittings before (that he has heard of).

In this pic you can see the black hose on the right of the skimmer cup. The white thing is the quick disconnect and below it you can see the black T fitting. The hose from the ozone generator is connected to the open end of the T that you see in that pic.

20130705_7050799_200gReef.jpg
 
Ozone can damage a lot of plastics. The problem you're seeing might be due to ozone, or perhaps too much ozone. It's hard to say. How old was the skimmer?
 
Thats exactly what ozone does to some plastics. Turns that stuff almost into dust so that it just falls apart.

--John
 
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Hmm, I'd get some ozone-resistant tubing, and I'm a bit worried that the skimmer might be getting a larger dose of ozone than would be ideal. An ozone reactor with some carbon after it would spare the skimmer a bit, for that matter.
 
Ok, so i had turned off the ozone generator.
I got a brass t-fitting (doesn't come into contact with water).
I replaced the cell with the new one from Ozotech.
I recalibrated the probe. Again.

Probe was calibrated on Sunday. As of Monday night, no rise in Ozone levels at all.
Although maybe the probe is still adjusting. I was a little worried to keep the generator running 24/7 so i turned it off monday night and now almost 24 hours later the probe is reading 301mV which is higher than it has been in a while, but the generator is not even turned on. :worried:
 
Yeah, this whole thing is really odd!

Ok, so i'm really trying to narrow this down. I figure it could be the following issues.

1) Bad generator
2) Bad probe
3) Something wrong with the skimmer

Let's go through each of these...

#3... only thing I could think of here would be some sort of clog in the line where the ozone enters the T fitting before the cup. Seen on the very right side of this pic. But everything seems clear and open when I look in there.

20130711_7110829_200gReef-XL.jpg



#2... I have recalibrated the probe numerous times. It seems to calibrate fine. We know it was working fine before. It still goes up slowly after calibrating. It just gets to a point where it won't go up any more. But still fluctuates a little throughout the day. So other than not going as high as I want, it still seems to be functioning normally.

#1... Not sure how to tell if this is working ok, other than using the probe readings as a guide.
The green light comes on when it's plugged in and it gets warm. Any safe way to tell if it's producing ozone? Right now, i'm leaning towards sending the unit back to be checked out.

Any other ideas?
 
I was unaware that you could calibrate an ORP probe. There are some solution which can be used as a control to determine the probe's accuracy but the guys at Neptune said there's no true calibration. I have found that if the probe is not accurate, a 20-30 minute soak in vinegar will clean it and it will read accurately again if placed in the control solution. If you don't get the correct reading it's time to replace the probe.

I use an Ozotech Poseidon P303 which includes a pressure-rated air pump and has no provision for an air dryer. I used to inject into my skimmer and had insufficient results. Now I use an Avast ozone reactor which has drastically improved the performance of the generator. It's rated for 200 mg/hr and I run it at 50% output which keeps my systems ORP around 350mV. My system is around 400 total gallons, heavily stocked and fed. HTH.
 
I was unaware that you could calibrate an ORP probe. There are some solution which can be used as a control to determine the probe's accuracy but the guys at Neptune said there's no true calibration. I have found that if the probe is not accurate, a 20-30 minute soak in vinegar will clean it and it will read accurately again if placed in the control solution. If you don't get the correct reading it's time to replace the probe.

I use an Ozotech Poseidon P303 which includes a pressure-rated air pump and has no provision for an air dryer. I used to inject into my skimmer and had insufficient results. Now I use an Avast ozone reactor which has drastically improved the performance of the generator. It's rated for 200 mg/hr and I run it at 50% output which keeps my systems ORP around 350mV. My system is around 400 total gallons, heavily stocked and fed. HTH.

Yeah, the problem here though is that everything was working just dandy for the first couple months and then all of a sudden it seems to have stopped producing ozone. I was getting readings over 400mv with the generator dial set very low. No air input needed for that either.

And as far as cleaning it, i found I had to give it a quick scrub on a weekly basis, otherwise it would start reading artificially high.
 
Yes but are you sure that the unit is or isn't producing ozone? I had seen some advice in an earlier post which advised you to 'sniff' the output to determine whether the unit is working or not.

I used to own a Red Sea ozonizer and it would periodically stop producing ozone. I called them about it and they had me backflush the unit with RO water to clean out the CD tube. The water came out black and once it was dried out, the unit was back to working like new.
 
I'm not sure why someone would say "there's no true calibration". There are various calibration solutions available for ORP meters, although they are rather unpredictable. I agree that something other than ORP would be a better choice for detecting ozone output. Ozone does have a distinctive odor, although it can damage all the various mucous membranes, so I'd be careful with it.
 
Yes but are you sure that the unit is or isn't producing ozone?

That's what i was saying in my previous post... based on my current deductions, i'm leaning towards the theory that there may be something wrong with the ozone generator, even though I replaced the cell.
 
Two possible explanations I can come up with...
1) Check all airline and tees for deposits or buildup for clogs. I have to use a paperclip end to clean out my venturi inlet on the skimmer when I clean the skimmer cup from some type of calcium buildup that happens very fast when I use ozone.
2) Ozone generator or transformer is bad. As I have posted earlier these Ozotech units in my experience are finicky at best. Maybe send it in for service if it is still under warranty. If the unit was working correctly your ORP should rise rather easily into the 400s I have found.
 
Two possible explanations I can come up with...
1) Check all airline and tees for deposits or buildup for clogs. I have to use a paperclip end to clean out my venturi inlet on the skimmer when I clean the skimmer cup from some type of calcium buildup that happens very fast when I use ozone.

This is quite common. Plenty often the build up is a bit higher up in the airline than you might expect and sometimes deeper down in the T fitting than you can see. Makes that old paper clip a top aquarist tool :D
 
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