jeremyjoslin
New member
Thanks for all the input. I'll research patches vs caps as well just in case.
Which one for ME: closed loop or powerheads
- Thread starter jeremyjoslin
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Thanks for all the input. I'll research patches vs caps as well just in case.
For a tank that size it is hard to beat a closed loop. The problem is pump noise - personally I really don't like the hum of a large pump.
the previous comments on the hammerhead are right on - it really isn't made for a closed loop. It will work fine, there are better more efficient pumps that move more water in that setup.
if you plug the holes I would personally use glue bulkheads with a stop inserted on the inside. you can also have 1/4" glass squares cut and silicone them from the inside. I did that on a friends 125 sump which used to be a reef ready tank.
for moving water on *this* tank I would go with tunze over vortech - here's the thought process: you dont want a powerhead where the end of the tank facing into the house is - it just wouldn't look good. if you go against the wall it would be a pain in the *** to get the vortech in, and the positioning wouldn't be good for that powerhead. I would consider a two 6095 nanostreams (center both 1/3d in from sides) and two 6105 or 6155s on the ends as a starting point.
hook those up to an APEX module and enjoy. they are very quiet.
If silence is important; I agree with Blurry....
I have my 120 in my work @ home office; and had it in a living space prior to this. I take tons of conference calls (on speakerphone.)
Critical for me was quiet; and although I *liked* certain things about the MP-40 I tried. Noise and maintenance (full wetside failure due to corrosion in my case) weren't spectacular. The CL pump option has a different noise; but it's still not something I'd be able to accept.
The Tunze 610X series pumps will push a stream nearly six feet; 6200's about seven. The 6100's will push four feet with a wide pattern if you modify the outlet, or buy 6200 series covers. And they're silent. And can be angled.
The six-foot plus spray is critical with your tank; two or three of those will do you well. The issue for this tank, I think, is that the Vortechs provide a wide pattern; but you can't the distance you can get from a Stream; and you have a long tank...
If it were my tank; minimum 4 6100-series Streams as your primary water movement. Supplement as needed.
-Andy
I have my 120 in my work @ home office; and had it in a living space prior to this. I take tons of conference calls (on speakerphone.)
Critical for me was quiet; and although I *liked* certain things about the MP-40 I tried. Noise and maintenance (full wetside failure due to corrosion in my case) weren't spectacular. The CL pump option has a different noise; but it's still not something I'd be able to accept.
The Tunze 610X series pumps will push a stream nearly six feet; 6200's about seven. The 6100's will push four feet with a wide pattern if you modify the outlet, or buy 6200 series covers. And they're silent. And can be angled.
The six-foot plus spray is critical with your tank; two or three of those will do you well. The issue for this tank, I think, is that the Vortechs provide a wide pattern; but you can't the distance you can get from a Stream; and you have a long tank...
If it were my tank; minimum 4 6100-series Streams as your primary water movement. Supplement as needed.
-Andy
I haven't played much with the Tunze pumps. Have you played with the 6105 vs the 6155?
how would you position four 6105 in this tank?
Well; it (obviously) depends on the rockwork, but with my tank I'm running two 6105's high on the back wall. Angled and pointed towards the front glass, slightly upward to encourage gas exchange at the surface, about center of my 4' front pane. They are on alternating channels on the APEX.
I have an older 6101 and 6000 (With a 24v 6100 Transformer; so, essentially a 6100)on the side panes, towards the front, pointing longitudinally, slightly angled towards the back. They're also alternating, but at different time sequences, so different surges happen at different times.
I don't have dead spots. Food, even post feeding, will magically levitate up from behind the rockwork, and down the overflow.
Obviously, we'd need to tweak placement and power based on how and where his overflows, returns, and rocks play out, but it works, and works well.
Waveboxes work well, too. My issues were the size of the unit, and the supposed stress it put on the silicone joints. Though I never heard of a seam rupture from one, I didn't want to be the first.
I have an older 6101 and 6000 (With a 24v 6100 Transformer; so, essentially a 6100)on the side panes, towards the front, pointing longitudinally, slightly angled towards the back. They're also alternating, but at different time sequences, so different surges happen at different times.
I don't have dead spots. Food, even post feeding, will magically levitate up from behind the rockwork, and down the overflow.
Obviously, we'd need to tweak placement and power based on how and where his overflows, returns, and rocks play out, but it works, and works well.
Waveboxes work well, too. My issues were the size of the unit, and the supposed stress it put on the silicone joints. Though I never heard of a seam rupture from one, I didn't want to be the first.
jeremyjoslin
New member
Thanks, both.
My rockwork is going to be simple in here. I'm going to try to create a ramp of sorts against the overflow box with as much open space as possible on the bottom of the ramp (think bridge collapsed look). Then an island or 3 out in the body of the tank at most 14" high.
General concepts:
- keep plenty of swimming room for bigger fishes.
- I like the open look (thus the whole reason I went with a more "square" than rectangle tank.
- I have remote sumps/fuges with lots more LR
- I will grow an LPS-heavy mixed reef (will be growing some of the more tolerant SPS, but not spending a ton of money on small, slow-growing, exotic specimens.
My rockwork is going to be simple in here. I'm going to try to create a ramp of sorts against the overflow box with as much open space as possible on the bottom of the ramp (think bridge collapsed look). Then an island or 3 out in the body of the tank at most 14" high.
General concepts:
- keep plenty of swimming room for bigger fishes.
- I like the open look (thus the whole reason I went with a more "square" than rectangle tank.
- I have remote sumps/fuges with lots more LR
- I will grow an LPS-heavy mixed reef (will be growing some of the more tolerant SPS, but not spending a ton of money on small, slow-growing, exotic specimens.
jeremyjoslin
New member
I labeled the sides so I can better understand references and placement suggestions. I really appreciate the consideration of my problem.
I haven't made a final decision yet, but leaning towards the PH route unless I can't figure out how to provide adequate flow.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
swiss cheese?
swiss cheese?
what the heck were they thinking!
swiss cheese?
what the heck were they thinking!
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC
I read half the first page of replies and then ADD kicked in, so maybe some of this has been said already, but - CLs can be extremely flexible if you plan carefully. For instance, don't glue the fittings inside the tank, friction fit slip fittings or use threaded fittings. If your flow direction needs change, pop a new elbow on or an eductor or something and you can change where/how much flow the tank gets. Need more or less flow overall? Put a different pump on. Closed loops have the distinct advantage of not cluttering the tank with giant ugly powerheads (though arguably they clutter it with giant ugly PVC fittings instead, but those can be hidden in rock and have a more "substantial" appearance anyways which is desirable IMHO).
Another common argument in favor of powerheads is the control factor, since so many prop pumps are controllable these days. You can get that with a VFD on a closed loop (DIY-intense) or an oceansmotions device or actuated ball valve - no big deal.
To me, the single substantial advantage powerheads have is a much lower energy footprint. You might be able to replace 400 - 600w of closed loop pump with 150w of prop-style powerheads. If that's enough of a difference to tip the scales for you then the decision is made.
To speak to your specific situation, if the tank already has holes, I would AT LEAST plumb for the closed loop outside the tank; just put ball valves on the bulkheads so you can seal the plumbing off. Then if you ever decide you want a closed loop, you can just slap a pump on the plumbing and open the valves. You've got to seal the holes off somehow if you're not going to use them on day one, might as well do it in a manner that gives you flexibility down the road.
Another common argument in favor of powerheads is the control factor, since so many prop pumps are controllable these days. You can get that with a VFD on a closed loop (DIY-intense) or an oceansmotions device or actuated ball valve - no big deal.
To me, the single substantial advantage powerheads have is a much lower energy footprint. You might be able to replace 400 - 600w of closed loop pump with 150w of prop-style powerheads. If that's enough of a difference to tip the scales for you then the decision is made.
To speak to your specific situation, if the tank already has holes, I would AT LEAST plumb for the closed loop outside the tank; just put ball valves on the bulkheads so you can seal the plumbing off. Then if you ever decide you want a closed loop, you can just slap a pump on the plumbing and open the valves. You've got to seal the holes off somehow if you're not going to use them on day one, might as well do it in a manner that gives you flexibility down the road.
jeremyjoslin
New member
If I were to run the CL pump from the basement, would I then want to re-consider the Hammerhead as a good choice? Playing devil's advocate, if I were to hard glue everything under the tank and send all maintenance requiring lines and equipment to the basement via a main drain and return line that connected to the CL pump in the basement, I might feel better about the whole thing.
Looking forward to house calls by a few of the gents in this thread tomorrow.
Looking forward to house calls by a few of the gents in this thread tomorrow.
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC
It makes no difference where you put the pump except for a negligible change in frictional losses. The static head on a closed loop, by definition, is always zero. Frictional losses are a pretty small portion of the load on a pump in these applications, you could put the pump at the other end of the house and it would probably only change flow by a few percent.
SkiFletch
New member
Correct Flanders. A Closed loop pump can be located anywhere in the home. You can even put it in the ceiling if you want so long as you prime it before running. As DWZM says, frictional losses from the pipes is pretty negligable on straight runs, especially if you keep the ID large. A bunch of gate valves or other restrictive plumbing of course will up your pressure differences, but the physical height and location of the pump means little. One thing to think about if anyone does want to use a CL is to try and set it up WITHOUT any right angle fittings immediately before the inlet especially, and really the outlet too. Laminar flow entering and exiting the pump really boosts its' efficiency. Darts and Snappers are the CL pumps of choice. Barracudas and Hammerheads are the return pumps of choice. Provided of course we're talking Sequence Reeflow pumps 
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC
Darts and Snappers are the CL pumps of choice. Barracudas and Hammerheads are the return pumps of choice. Provided of course we're talking Sequence Reeflow pumps
Unless you want stupid-high flow, in which case you'll want one of those pressure biased pumps (barracuda, hammerhead, manta ray, etc) with eductors on the outputs in the tank! In general though I agree, typically a low pressure flow-biased pump is optimal for a closed loop.
jeremyjoslin
New member
Thanks to everyone on your input here. I never thought I would, but I changed my mind based on everyone's input here.
Bottom line: I can't get the flow I need using PH unless I spend a ton of cash and litter the tank with them. For my application, an MP-60 won't save the day.
I've decided to use a closed loop for flow, but will plumb the CL pump to the basement, and modify the design of the previous tank owner.
For further info on build ...
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2211695
Bottom line: I can't get the flow I need using PH unless I spend a ton of cash and litter the tank with them. For my application, an MP-60 won't save the day.
I've decided to use a closed loop for flow, but will plumb the CL pump to the basement, and modify the design of the previous tank owner.
For further info on build ...
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2211695
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