White Knights....thoughts?

[Cicatrix]

But in all seriousness I think the White Knights genetic makeup speaks for itself.

They are genetically flawed fish bred for designer looks with no regard to the animals health.

These babies are combination of my favorite which are a Rods Onyx, Donis Snowcasso, and a Snowflake. I don't think you can get any better.

The variants you listed above are also the results of selective breeding. You can interbreed any combination of genetically flawed fish and you still end up with a genetically flawed fish. I'm confused as to what you mean by "better."

Listen, I said it above, I have no problem with breeding these fish for their patterns and I certainly have no problem with people making money off of them. And least of all I have no issue with people spending their own money to place these fish in their tanks. If you like them then by all means buy them and don't worry if other people think they "look cool."

But to claim these fish have strong breeding lines, pure genetics and proven health is completely false. They don't. They're genetic experiments created and cultivated to appeal to a select market.

 

[shred5]

I am on no soap box. I just plain think that most designer clown are flat out ugly .. I do not buy something just because it different. I don't care how different the Nissan cube is I will not buy it, just plain ugly.

 

[CerealKiller024]

I am on no soap box. I just plain think that most designer clown are flat out ugly .. I do not buy something just because it different. I don't care how different the Nissan cube is I will not buy it, just plain ugly.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Or beer holder depending! :lmao:

Really you've never bought anything for your tank because it looks different then things you've seen in others?

 

[BonsaiNut]

My point has nothing to do with appearance, and everything to do with sloppy husbandry and cheap marketing. It is easier and cheaper to raise flawed clownfish than perfect ones. Just as it is easier and cheaper to raise low quality dogs than high quality ones (i.e. puppy mills). If you want to go ahead and raise clown parrot fish and call them "Tom's Golden Showers Miracle Clowns" there's no law preventing you. Just like there's no law preventing people from paying $500 for your snake oil. I am a personal fan of quality over quantity, and healthy over runt. I just don't want to hear people trying to tell me that misbars, humped backs, smashed faces, bent fins, bulging eyes, or any other abnormalities are "rare" when in fact they are easier to create than not... "Easier" normally equates with "lower price". But hey, it's your money.

 

[LargeAngels]

I also think that the fish should be physically formed the same as a wild caught specimen. I really can't stand the deformities I see in some of these fish. I really don't care for most of these color schemes, but if someone likes them great, enjoy them. Just don't continue with the deformities.

 

[velvetelvis]

The problem I have is not the color, its the deformities. A GOOD breeder can breed the crazy colors but without the flared gills, smushed face, bad underbite, etc. These problems are from poor water quality. If you want to charge $200+ for a fish, spend $50 extra dollars on water/salt and change some water and feed them quality food.

This.

It isn't the crazy striping (or lack of). It's the facial and head deformities and bad conformation. It's just plain irresponsible and greedy to perpetuate poorly bred, poorly raised fish, PERIOD. The fact that these breeders then charge outrageous prices for them just because they have novelty value and fancy names adds insult to injury.

I don't have a philosophical objection to designer morphs, though they're not my cup of tea, but I do have a big problem with breeders selling deformed fish. The uniqueness should come from the fishes' colors and patterns, not from bulldog faces and stunted fins. In form, they should be identical to wild clownfish--that is, healthy, normal fish. I don't care whether or not I personally think a fish is pretty. I do care whether or not fish are being bred and raised responsibly.

 

[aandfsoccr04]

I can't really believe how much hating there is in this thread. I don't think that just because a fish has a different color pattern or variant than seen in the wild, that it is flawed or something is wrong with it. Some people choose to replicate their tanks to look like the ocean and that's fine. Other people want to make their tanks unique or different and stock it with things that appeal to them and that's fine too. It's just a personal preference of what you think is attractive and at a cost you are willing to pay. I paid $300 for my "designer" clowns and I love them. I don't care what anyone else on the forum says about them because I'm the one that looks at them everyday and am very thrilled with my purchase. If they are your favorite, then get them.
:beer:

 

[shred5]

You know what I noticed. Look at the join dates.. most people who hate designer clowns have been in the hobby along time. Most of the people that defend them have joined within the last two years and most within a year.

What does that mean?

 

[aandfsoccr04]

It means that people who have been in the hobby a long time don't care for the hobby to change all that much. People who have been in the hobby over ten years are probably over the age of thirty and had tanks set up a long time and don't like the changes that have been made in the hobby recently.

People that are joining in the past year or two are more likely to be teens to late twenties and are the reason the hobby is changing to what it is today. We like to have stuff in our tank that is rare or uncommon and are willing to pay a premium for it when people who have been in the hobby for longer than ten years are used to paying ten dollars for just an acan or a chalice or what have you when we have only known paying ten or twenty dollars all the way up to hundreds of dollars per head or eye or whatever of the latest greatest limited edition ultra rare super colorful whatever is in frag at the time. Same thing with the designer clowns. They are the new thing and people can charge a premium for them, which is smart business if you ask me, and people will pay the premium that breeders are charging. You should charge whatever the market will bear and the demand for the clowns is what sets the supply level and I don't see designer clowns going anywhere in the next few years.

 

[Cicatrix]

I don't think that just because a fish has a different color pattern or variant than seen in the wild, that it is flawed or something is wrong with it.

You are stating your opinion, however the science and genetics behind the animal says just the opposite.

The entire reason an unusual pattern exists is BECAUSE of a genetic flaw.

If it WEREN'T a genetic flaw then the fish would have normal coloration and build.

The entire reason you people like these fish is because they HAVE abnormal genes. These fish are genetic mistakes that are bred along until the mistakes are phenotypically expressed in all the offspring.

There are two issues at hand:
1. These fish are genetic mutations that are cultivated to express those flawed genes
2. You are free to purchase, own, breed and sell them as much as you like

But you can't possibly accept number 2 without the realization that number 1 is correct. You can't state that these fish have "pure" breeding or are genetically normal...because if they were you wouldn't have the abnormal coloration to swoon over.

I'm at a loss trying to see why that's a difficult concept to understand. Must be my over-30 brain using too much logic.

 

[shred5]

It means that people who have been in the hobby a long time don't care for the hobby to change all that much. People who have been in the hobby over ten years are probably over the age of thirty and had tanks set up a long time and don't like the changes that have been made in the hobby recently.

People that are joining in the past year or two are more likely to be teens to late twenties and are the reason the hobby is changing to what it is today. We like to have stuff in our tank that is rare or uncommon and are willing to pay a premium for it when people who have been in the hobby for longer than ten years are used to paying ten dollars for just an acan or a chalice or what have you when we have only known paying ten or twenty dollars all the way up to hundreds of dollars per head or eye or whatever of the latest greatest limited edition ultra rare super colorful whatever is in frag at the time. Same thing with the designer clowns. They are the new thing and people can charge a premium for them, which is smart business if you ask me, and people will pay the premium that breeders are charging. You should charge whatever the market will bear and the demand for the clowns is what sets the supply level and I don't see designer clowns going anywhere in the next few years.

Designer clowns are neither rare or uncommon and have been around along time. Maybe it is more young people get caught up in the hype more and the I have to have.. Maybe the soap box is the other way around.. Oh look what I spent, it might be ugly but I spent a fortune on it. Mine cost more than yours.

I don't have to pay a fortune for stuff. I have been in the hobby long enough and some of those LE corals you are buying were mine or were friends of mine. I have gave away so much coral in my life most people wont charge me for corals they have, I am just smart enough to know how simple it is to propagate corals and enough demand creates allot of propagation. I do not have to have right away and will get it free or cheap later. I have been in the hobby long enough to learn not to waste money except on things that are truly rare.

 

[D-Nak]

I don't want to steer this off-topic, but what do you think of Onyx clowns? Do they fall into the "designer clown" category? I've seen many wild Onyx so I assume it's not a genetic flaw, but a different phenotype based on a specific geographic location. I purchased a pair of Rod's clowns since I wanted a pair of captive bred clowns, but I also liked the black dorsal, and I knew that Rod's clowns expressed the black dorsal with more frequency than other captive bred Onyx clowns. I don't think I ever referred to them as "designer" though.

 

[shred5]

I don't want to steer this off-topic, but what do you think of Onyx clowns? Do they fall into the "designer clown" category? I've seen many wild Onyx so I assume it's not a genetic flaw, but a different phenotype based on a specific geographic location. I purchased a pair of Rod's clowns since I wanted a pair of captive bred clowns, but I also liked the black dorsal, and I knew that Rod's clowns expressed the black dorsal with more frequency than other captive bred Onyx clowns. I don't think I ever referred to them as "designer" though.

Rods clowns were from the original c-quest pair several generation later. I am not sure if they are defective or not. It was thought there was a defective gene. They are beautiful clowns none the less. Rod is a friend and is a good breeder. His female died this past year so I am not sure we will be seeing anymore.

I personally don't care if people buy these designer clowns its when someone tells me I am on my high horse for not preferring them and thinking most are ugly that gets me angry.

 

[D-Nak]

It means that people who have been in the hobby a long time don't care for the hobby to change all that much. People who have been in the hobby over ten years are probably over the age of thirty and had tanks set up a long time and don't like the changes that have been made in the hobby recently.

People that are joining in the past year or two are more likely to be teens to late twenties and are the reason the hobby is changing to what it is today. We like to have stuff in our tank that is rare or uncommon and are willing to pay a premium for it when people who have been in the hobby for longer than ten years are used to paying ten dollars for just an acan or a chalice or what have you when we have only known paying ten or twenty dollars all the way up to hundreds of dollars per head or eye or whatever of the latest greatest limited edition ultra rare super colorful whatever is in frag at the time. Same thing with the designer clowns. They are the new thing and people can charge a premium for them, which is smart business if you ask me, and people will pay the premium that breeders are charging. You should charge whatever the market will bear and the demand for the clowns is what sets the supply level and I don't see designer clowns going anywhere in the next few years.

This has more to do with the older folks trying to educate the younger folks on the history of how something came into existence. As many of us have already mentioned, you can do whatever ever you want with that information.

Let me school you on something while we're at it. 99% of the rare fish collected (aberrant colors, hybrids, etc.) go to the Asian market -- usually to older Asian businessmen. Trust me, "designer" clowns are not what the big dogs buy.

 

[velvetelvis]

It means that people who have been in the hobby a long time don't care for the hobby to change all that much. People who have been in the hobby over ten years are probably over the age of thirty and had tanks set up a long time and don't like the changes that have been made in the hobby recently.

People that are joining in the past year or two are more likely to be teens to late twenties and are the reason the hobby is changing to what it is today. We like to have stuff in our tank that is rare or uncommon and are willing to pay a premium for it when people who have been in the hobby for longer than ten years are used to paying ten dollars for just an acan or a chalice or what have you when we have only known paying ten or twenty dollars all the way up to hundreds of dollars per head or eye or whatever of the latest greatest limited edition ultra rare super colorful whatever is in frag at the time. Same thing with the designer clowns. They are the new thing and people can charge a premium for them, which is smart business if you ask me, and people will pay the premium that breeders are charging. You should charge whatever the market will bear and the demand for the clowns is what sets the supply level and I don't see designer clowns going anywhere in the next few years.

:lol: You mean we don't like these fish because we're a bunch of old fogies who hate change? Give me a break.

FWIW, I'm over 40, and I didn't get into this hobby until about 4 or 5 years ago--at an age when I was already old and rigid and hopelessly set in my ways, by your standards. I don't have any problem with innovation. I just switched my reef tank over to that newfangled LED lighting and like it just fine.

What most of the posters here who have posted negative opinions are saying is that it's not designer morphs they're objecting to, but misshapen fish with protruding jaws, stubby fins, and the like. A good, conscientious breeder can produce designer morphs without sacrificing other important considerations like shape and form (which also are part of the fish's beauty). As long as designer clowns are shaped like normal, healthy, wild-form clownfish, I don't care if they come out polka-dotted.

 

[BonsaiNut]

It means that people who have been in the hobby a long time don't care for the hobby to change all that much. People who have been in the hobby over ten years are probably over the age of thirty and had tanks set up a long time and don't like the changes that have been made in the hobby recently.

OR it could mean that many of these people starting breeding clowns years ago. It could mean that they made many of the simple beginner mistakes that the new breeders are making. It could mean that they were part of the process to improve husbandry, feeding, and other best practices that new breeders are ignoring. It could mean that they feel dismayed that all of their work is being ignored so someone can make a fast buck.

And I don't call it "hating". I call it wisdom and experience. I don't "hate" any designer clown breeder, but I'll call a bad quality clown when I see one - REGARDLESS of its color or pattern.

You are stating your opinion, however the science and genetics behind the animal says just the opposite.

The entire reason an unusual pattern exists is BECAUSE of a genetic flaw.

There are genetics, and there are environmental factors. Give me a full spawn of clowns and I can raise 50% with top quality water and husbandry and high-end food, and end up with a very low rate of abnormalities and brilliant color, high contrast clean pattern, active fish. Meanwhile I will take the other half, raise them in less than optimal conditions, and achieve 95% or more poor quality fish with high abnormalities, poor color, etc.

People who don't breed clowns don't understand what a fine line there is between great quality and ok or poor quality. Much of the development of marine fish happens at the larval stage when the tiniest change in environment can have a dramatic impact. Professional breeders track their breeding efforts to the nth degree... tracking their survival rates, grading their fish, tracking their quality over time, etc. When you spend years and thousands of dollars to improve your breeding program by the narrowest margin, trust me when I say that you can look at other fish and tell poor quality from excellent quality at a glance... and it has almost NOTHING to do with genetics.

You want to know why many of the pro breeders use circular larval tanks with circular water pattern and center lighting? It was because they were finding that when they used rectangular tanks the larval fish were impacting the sides and causing a high rate of pug nose and broken jaw. So they invested a ton of money to create systems to keep larval fish away from the sides as much as possible. They cull pug noses and broken jaws as environmental abnormalities NOT GENETICS. Yet I see garage breeders selling pug nose fish all the time... because they don't know better and/or they don't care because to them it is a quick $200 they can get from an unsuspecting hobbyist.

 

[CerealKiller024]

I personally don't care if people buy these designer clowns its when someone tells me I am on my high horse for not preferring them and thinking most are ugly that gets me angry.

It sure doesn't seem like you don't care if people buy these. Sounds like it bothers you. Your not on your horse about not preferring them that's your choice, Your on your horse for thinking we should all have the same thing.

 

[velvetelvis]

It sure doesn't seem like you don't care if people buy these. Sounds like it bothers you. Your not on your horse about not preferring them that's your choice, Your on your horse for thinking we should all have the same thing.

This is degenerating into "You think you're better than me!" That's not the case at all, and it's not what's at issue. No one is attacking or belittling the posters who like designer clownfish. They're objecting to poor breeding and husbandry. The critical comments aren't personal attacks and shouldn't be taken personally.

 

[BonsaiNut]

For the record, I think a HIGH QUALITY picasso clown can look amazing! Low quality... not so much.

 

[Cicatrix]

No one is attacking or belittling the posters who like designer clownfish. They're objecting to poor breeding and husbandry. The critical comments aren't personal attacks and shouldn't be taken personally.

:beer:

Agreed.

For what its worth, I personally like the look of some of the "designer" fish. At another time in my life I was involved in breeding Leopard Geckos. That was back when you paid close to $1000 for a "jungle" patterned gecko that now sells for $69 at PetSmart. But the top breeders in that hobby essentially wiped out smaller breeders because they could produce masses of these designer patters, remove the obviously deformed animals from the breeding population, saturate the market and not incur any substantial financial loss.

I think we're seeing the exact same thing now.

Breeding clownfish is not a regulated hobby. It is incumbent upon the breeders and the hobbyists to strike a happy medium. We as hobbyists want the designer patterns but we must also demand that the health of the fish is not compromised. It is then on the breeder to produce healthy animals that still retain enough of the desired trait to remain profitable to them. Fine line.

If dog breeders were churning out puppies with misshapen faces, arched backs and wide set eyes there would be a public outcry.

Not so with fish and reptiles.

So it comes down to us. I think thats what bothers me most.

I don't care if you like a clownfish that looks like someone threw up on it, but you should be demanding that the fish is of the highest quality otherwise. Unfortunately we are too early in the development phase of these designer fish to have that part worked out yet...hence the sale of "underbite psychedelic picasso ocellaris" that will be the jewel of some poor saps collection. (until it dies)