Why do bioballs get bashed? Scientifically...

[swcc]

Assuming it was strictly a live rock comparison, its very safe to say anecdotally we can't repeat the results consistently, whatsoever. Anyone relying on live rock/bacteria within to reduce is asking for disappointment

Interesting enough though... when people exhibit the patience in cycling their tank properly...nitrates go away. Perhaps the primary problem is the industry standard of put rocks in tank and once there is no ammonia or nitrate(two weeks usually)...add bioload(fish, coral, CUC).... but what happens to those that follow a slower path of 3 month of cycling and cycle their rocks fully through the nitrate cycle and algae bloom cycle...good things come to those that wait.
Commonly what one is experience with too soon of stocking is a tank that is slave to catching up and conversely it never really does in many instances or does so finally after about a year of sound husbandry... the reality of problem stems from rushed cycles and one becomes slaves to GFO, Carbon, and other excessive means...all because they could not wait to get their tank stocked up.

 

[Khemul]

Interesting enough though... when people exhibit the patience in cycling their tank properly...nitrates go away. Perhaps the primary problem is the industry standard of put rocks in tank and once there is no ammonia or nitrate(two weeks usually)...add bioload(fish, coral, CUC).... but what happens to those that follow a slower path of 3 month of cycling and cycle their rocks fully through the nitrate cycle and algae bloom cycle...good things come to those that wait.
Commonly what one is experience with too soon of stocking is a tank that is slave to catching up and conversely it never really does in many instances or does so finally after about a year of sound husbandry... the reality of problem stems from rushed cycles and one becomes slaves to GFO, Carbon, and other excessive means...all because they could not wait to get their tank stocked up.

That is an interesting variable to consider. It does make a lot of sense.

Especially if the reproduction rate is different, sort of like how ammonia-converters seem to establish faster then nitrite-converters (although nitrite-converters seem more hardy once established). The nitrate-converters couldn't even start to become established until the cycle was effectively complete. Which means their cycle would begin to establish at around the same point the main cycle becomes established.

 

[Psionicdragon]

Would SPS skeletons and dead corals be considered "live rocks"? WOuld they even help with the filtration or bacteria colonization?

 

[brandon429]

anything equally porous to live rock would be considered. a lot of our lr is accreted skeletons so yes thats possible.

I disagree on cycling having anything to do with nitrate reduction. not to argue but this thread is a posit of observances and thats mine, cycling can't alter whether or not live rock will make a difference in nitrates as 99% of the time no matter what you do the live rock will never make a change in your measurable nitrates. the other 1% is reserved for peer reviewed works and lucky web posters

 

[brandon429]

Now I will tell you this. my nemesis hecticdialectics on nr.com uses a very very overly conservative cycling routine for similar reasons, so without discounting it I should ask you to expound. Thats twice now Ive heard about rush stocking causing problems.

Interestingly Im a rush stocker who also gets zero support in denitrification from live rock so this will be a good devils advocate to play. Id like to see differences in my tank, no nitrate, so Im game


I took live rock fully cured from a lfs, drove home ten blocks and put it in my pico and installed all the corals. seven years ago, there was no cycle due to obvious reasons. There was no live rock dieoff because there was nothing to die on it...the coralline, pods, and coral hitchhikers remained etc

what biological differences would be had by waiting...eg applying dry rock cycling times to fully cultured lr?

 

[disc1]

anything equally porous to live rock would be considered. a lot of our lr is accreted skeletons so yes thats possible.

I disagree on cycling having anything to do with nitrate reduction. not to argue but this thread is a posit of observances and thats mine, cycling can't alter whether or not live rock will make a difference in nitrates as 99% of the time no matter what you do the live rock will never make a change in your measurable nitrates. the other 1% is reserved for peer reviewed works and lucky web posters

Brandon, you've made it perfectly clear that you've made up your mind but you haven't shown us any evidence other than the fact that your 1 gallon tank doesn't work out like you want it to.

I'll leave the reader to take you words or Dr. Holmes-Farley on the matter. I wish he was around to post on this but he's been offline for a couple of months. The studious reefer is encouraged to read his articles most all of which can are linked on the chemistry forum at this site.

 

[brandon429]

Ok, how about answering my question, I asked and you didnt


In your links, were additional substrates involved or was it a live rock and water and bioload test?

If you are saying Randy can tell us how to make LFS live rock reduce nitrate in a measurable way, I say bring on the specifics. its not just my one gallon, its hordes of coached tanks online and hundreds in person. and ten years of reading about nitrates in the majority of tanks. Id even guess you have some? I know you'll be honest. whats your nitrate meaures and what portion of that does your lr convert?

The facet of the thread I want to keep alive is that what you have linked cannot be replicated unless you are part of the 1% lucky. Ive asked for additional detail on how pre cycling can affect that, Im open to input. I'll change the way hundreds of pico reefs in the future are set up if this works. You guys post links, yet I can't get that benefit no matter how I set up a tank, so Im pressing you to account for the data.

If I understand you are saying it might work in ideal situations, but not all of the time?

Rather than saying live rock reduces nitrate for sure, that needs to be amended into something that matches the results most of us get=live rock and nitrates such that you have to use additional checmical and physical means to deal with them

 

[disc1]

The reactors listed used sediment I believe. But it was the same type of bacteria. And they measured an output. Is that enough to keep your tank from having high nitrates? In some cases yes. In many cases no. But the effect is definitely real and is measurable.

 

[brandon429]

double post

 

[brandon429]

I had trouble linking your threads to the live rock debate as the additional substrates are confounding variables for this test. it is very hard for someone to quantify the amount and reliability of live rocks to reduce nitrate, that's what Id like to see firmly stated in the thread.

Its so unpredictable it can't even be measured or counted on or planned around. So use bioballs if you want...doesnt matter.

 

[disc1]

My big tank has an extremely low bioload. I spend a lot of time on the road and it runs on autopilot most of the time. I tend to get some bubble algae if I let the thing go 3 months without a water change. But for the most part I don't have nutrient problems. I don't dose any carbon. I do grow chaeto and I only have about a hundred pounds of rock in there. But that is mostly in two rocks and there are a grand total of five rocks in the whole tank. So my rocks go pretty deep. So I really dont know and don't care what percentage of nitrate gets turned over by the denitrifiers and what part gets exported by chaeto.

All I'm saying is that the effect is known. It is measurable. It happens. And I don't care how many times you say it isn't real you might as well say the sky isn't blue. You've more than demonstrated your lack of knowledge in chemistry yet you continue to make assertions as fact. I'll leave it entirely to the reader.

My little tank is an algae farm thanks to the phosphate leeching dry rock I started it with. It needs to be taken down and sold and as soon as I have time I will. I never did have time to devote to that one and I shouldn't have put it up. I only did because I won it at a raffle.

In short, I've said three times now and others have too. There's no way you can count on denitrification to completely control nitrate. But denitrification is real. It happens. Those bugs are real.

 

[disc1]

For reference purposes, my bigger tank only gets fed about once a month when I'm there and want to see them eat. Aside from that the fish live off the pod population. So I'm not exactly importing nutrients either. My system functions pretty much as an enclosed eco system.

 

[brandon429]

I could ask you again to be specific when saying its measurable but its clear you can only push a chemist so far. you gave me quotes involving more than just live rock as the reducing substrate.

 

[Anemone]

quick summary again, cant resist

Yes, you can. Unless you're just trying to senselessly argue, which I'm beginning to think is the case.

if you set up a tank with purely bioballs as the filtration, enough to cover the waste generated from 2 fish, and you set up the exact same tank with live rock as the only filtration, the nitrates will be: exactly the same

No, I (and many others) disagree. The nitrate produced will be exactly the same. The nitrates measured in the water column WILL be different. Enough of us have had mature bioball systems that have been changed over to liverock systems to argue the point with you.

Thats important to keep in mind since the topic is comparing bioballs and rock and nitrate. we have been falsely told that live rock and the bacteria within will reduce nitrates to the point there is a measurable difference, it wont. it will happen on paper, but you'll never be able to measure it whatsoever.

And.... you're wrong. No matter how many times you want to say otherwise, both the scientific literature and the anecdotal experience of many hobbyists indicate a significant reduction in nitrates when using liverock systems over bioball systems.

Kevin

 

[Nanook]

I could find hundreds of threads in the archives where new reefers were dealing with high nitrate levels and followed the experience of the successful reefers using liverock, ditched the bioballs and voila! Their nitrate went down to near zero levels, just by getting rid of the bioballs.

This doesn't mean it will stay at zero because then the urge to add more fish and subsequently more food until nitrate is again an issue.

You come across as a defiant teenager in this thread and attack folks with infinitely more knowledge than you with no basis in science, just conjecture and bias.

 

[brandon429]

Im disagreeing with you, thats all. Disagreeing with chemists usually devolves into Im a chemist you aren't back and forth, thats fine with me. it happened to the other guy too...

Nanook I have hundreds of threads where live rock didn't reduce nitrates what does that add to the matter?

Should we start linking all the threads for proof?

Since you guys are able to command these quotes tell us how to translate it into a measurable benefit.
How much nitrate will the best live rock reduce into gas?
The only science listed in this thread was Disc's links, and they didn't pertain to the issue but they were darn close. they included lots of things other than live rock measured alone.

you should be able to tell us how to get a 5 gallon nano reef to be nitrate free using only live rock, you set the bioload maximums.

So to get back on track, tell us the right way to set up a nano of any size and make the live rock reduce your nitrate into gas such that you can measure the difference pre and post live rock.

 

[disc1]

Im disagreeing with you, thats all. Disagreeing with chemists usually devolves into Im a chemist you aren't back and forth, thats fine with me.

Only when you made stuff up like carbon dioxide reducing pH to zero and oxygen being a faster diffuser in water than nitrate. Aside from that, all I've said is that it may not be enough, but does exist.

We've not been shown one thing here that says how much nitrate live rocks will reduce, not once.

I posted several scientific studies where the action of said bacteria was measured. Live rock itself does nothing. It is inert rock. But the bacteria living in it are a different story.

 

[Khemul]

I see a lot of theory in the thread and no specifics, ya'll hate to be pressed for that. We've not been shown one thing here that says how much nitrate live rocks will reduce, not once.

Technically speaking this applies to both sides. Since you haven't really produced any specifics except to vaguely reference a bunch of tanks that may or may not exist.

You can't really insist everyone else back up their facts with solid evidence, when your counter-evidence is based entirely on your own feelings and conjecture.

 

[brandon429]

its based on my observation in following every rule quoted to get lr to reduce nitrate and it didn't work.


Since none of us have links to apply that actually measure live rock alone, what you have here is a 6 page anecdote I guess no side wins.

Someone post links of peer reviewed work measuring the reductive benefits of live rock alone, its the only way to get specific.

Dav I did grasp we're talking about bacteria thanks.

Summarize your points then. if you set up a tank with live rock, how much nitrate degassing benefit will you get? My summary is you get none, at least thats specific. None as in you can't measure the tiny amounts being degassed as N2


I have read many threads on bioballs and everyone says they're NO3 factories in a bad way and to use live rock instead. The consensus is that the live rock provides areas deep in the rock that lack oxygen for a certain bacteria type to break down NO3.

Everything Ive said is to address this quote. if its being broken down, you can't tell or benefit from it.

 

[disc1]

you should be able to tell us how to get a 5 gallon nano reef to be nitrate free using only live rock, you set the bioload maximums.

Nope. No one can. It's not the rock, it's the bacteria. If you have rock without denitrifiers then none. If you have some denitrifiers then some. The papers I linked related bacterial population to the amount turned over. It doesn't matter if they live in rock or deep in sediment. They are going to do the same thing.

Although, if you match your bioload with the natural reef you should be fine on nitrate. That would be something like a single zoa polyp in a 5ga nano. But most of us would be really bored with that.

Still, I don't think bioballs will help the nitrate down any. I don't know of any process that goes on there that reduces nitrate.