Why do bioballs get bashed? Scientifically...

[ReefJuice]

Key points of the article are that LR reduces nitrogenous compounds at testable and detectable levels. You can see that in the charts and in abstract in the link

 

[ReefJuice]

Also includes surface area and weights of rocks used in the tests,
and I used this for a research paper I wrote for a zoology course

*EDIT: also why I want to make sure not to plagiarize that source

 

[brandon429]

Well I can't see it so keep summarizing pls. What is the origin of the live rock in the experiment

What is the rate or total amount of nitrate removed per pound of lr

Any chance you'd post your work?

 

[disc1]

Did you just link me an article I have to pay to read?

Unfortunately that is just the nature of scientific literature these days.

If you want the type of proof you seem to be looking for, you're likely going to have to pay to read it. But that paper appears to have exactly what it is you want to know.

 

[xavi_west]

Do you have any fact to back this up? I have a hard time accepting O2 levels are non existent at the bottom of the aquarium. You say it's science but provide no logic and it contradicts what's being said about diffusion. Personally I feel O2 is EVERYWHERE not sealed in an aquarium and probably has an easier time diffusing then NO3.

I'm not trying to argue. More understand. I am tired of flying blindly into spending money in this hobby.

OK why there isn't O2 all over the aquarium, if someone already explained it my bad :lol2:. I'm gonna try to give an informed microbiological explanation.

First we must know some bacteria are aerobic, others facultative while others requiere full absence of oxygen to live, anaerobics. This means some require oxygen to live, some dont mind living with it or without it and some can't live with it.

Bacteria sometimes form layers were one starts to grow on a surface, then another one will grow on top of it consequently. Such layer formations can be seen on the image below, they are called biofilms.

On this pictures you can see actually two images of what a biofilm would look like:

On the biofilm bacteria will be arranged in different patterns, deppending on their metabolic capabilities. Not necesarilly related to a biofilm, examples of bacterial layering can be seen on a Winogradsky Column were bacterial layering can be viewed on different color layers deppending on their metabolic capabilities, their super powers once again :spin2:.

Heres a diagram of a column;

Heres what they actually look like;

So why are we talking about biofilms and bacterial layering when we wanted to know why we didn't have O2 on all the aquarium.

O2 is the final electron acceptor on the production of ATP. That means he is the last thing needed to produce energy in the body used by aerobic and facultative bacteria. They are also other final electron acceptors such as Nitrogen and Sulfur used by anaerobic bacteria, still O2 is capable of producing more atp (energy) and its easier to use by facultative bacteria (the ones that don't mind if there is or there is not oxygen to thrive) for that reason it is depleated before oxygen. At the time nutrients get by difussion to the first layer of bacteria all the oxygen will be used up by the bacteria on the upper layers and only harder compounds such as Nitrogen, Iron and Sulfur will be used to make energy. The last one would be the hardest one to process and the one that produces the less energy available.

Hope that helps someone :hmm3:.

 

[disc1]

The thing I see without reading, only looking at the data in the link, is that there was a significant reduction in nitrogenous waste and that the denitrifying bacteria were found not too deep into the rock (last figure not the table)

It is also interesting that they found a greater reduction when the same weight of rock was made up of more individual rocks.

 

[brandon429]

My phone browser won't show it

Was it aquarium cured lr or ocean direct

I see some of the data is for ammonia not nitrate id like to see more of the trate info

 

[rcemanon]

Interesting thread.. Recently, I was thinking about wet/dry bio-ball filters (nitrate factories) and what possible role bio-pellets could have played had the technology been around. As I understand it with bio-pellets, once the bacteria colonizes the pellets and begins consuming them, they have the potential of running open-loop given a sizeable (large) supply of Nitrate as the other necessary key ingredient. Isn't that one of the reasons bio-pellet reactors have gone to recirculating types due to nitrate and phosphate stripping? Hmm... bio-ball filter output into bio-pellet reactor into skimmer. Interesting....

 

[ReefJuice]

My phone browser won't show it

Was it aquarium cured lr or ocean direct

Doesn't specifically say if it was aquarium cured or not. I'm guessing maybe somewhere between aquarium cured and ocean cured.. I say this because the coral they used was kept in outdoor raceways or flow-thru tanks for over a year before they used it in the tests.. so possibly the live rock was kept the same way

 

[ReefJuice]

It is also interesting that they found a greater reduction when the same weight of rock was made up of more individual rocks.

Yes, due to the increased surface area.

 

[brandon429]

I've been able to read a little more of the abstract by tilting phone up, it just won't display it on the horizontal mode...they are using a sea cuc for the nitrogen source that's neat. I had asked about origin to get any idea if variation in bacterial culture matters. Doesn't look like they did anything special to the live rock to prep it or anything

trying to see what amount of no3 is converted by x amnt of lr

 

[swcc]

I've used bio-balls on several of my reef tanks and have never had a bad nuisance algae outbreak on the tanks with them.

that is IMO the one thing bioballs do well.. with the bacterial activity primarily out of the display, less chance of drastic algae problems(not to mention no bound phosphate in the balls I would believe(like rocks)...
Back on my old bioball tank, water trickled over the bioballs then out through a uv and to the tank...my tank was pristine even with high nitrates(20-30PPM) and I would guess phosphate too. (we did not test that back then).
Before I got the uv I would get a little algae on my decorations and crushed coral.


What is your total filtration system like in addition to the bioballs and how did you cycle the tank... I have thought that cycling bioballs(or dry rock in a sump) then adding dry rock for the display might be a great way to get the bacteria to process mostly out of the display and with a uv in line to the tank....keep it out.

 

[swcc]

.......

 

[karimwassef]

Do bioballs in a wet/dry increase the oxygenation of the water? I am asking because they allow more water to come in contact with air.

 

[brandon429]

Yes but its not the bioballs, its the delivery system in the sump that creates the agitation as water is dropped down onto them. It could be live rock in the sump or ceramic media with similar oxygenation effects....so its not the substrate in question, its the disturbance of the water.

 

[karimwassef]

so it's not the surface area of the bioballs causing increase water/air interaction. It's the dripping of the water into the sump? So a "shower head" has more oxygenation than bioballs.

With a high volume protein skimmer (dual Beckett nozzles), is there any additional value to the oxygenation from bioballs or a "shower head" in the sump?

 

[brandon429]

you are asking for a 15 page argument with that question sir



I merely said they don't hurt that much with nitrate and look what happened

my answer about your oxygenation is that I would infer or actually test to see if your levels are low, its rare in reeftank circles to suffer from low o2 when using a skimmer

so exactly like the nitrate angle, Im sure they do something, but not enough to make a difference we can tell other than the fine data on paper. Now queue the next fifteen pages of arguments over why bioballs impact/dont impact oxygenation!!

 

[ReefJuice]

so exactly like the nitrate angle, Im sure they do something, but not enough to make a difference we can tell other than the fine data on paper. Now queue the next fifteen pages of arguments over why bioballs impact/dont impact oxygenation!!

+1

Yep, just like you said, its the surface disturbance that allows for more gas exchange

 

[maypo59]

Wow. Just Wow.

I have been in reef tanks since we had to build everything ourselves, and shotgun wads.. yes, shotgun wads, was the "NEW" thing to use in a wet/dry chamber..

What I KNOW is, switching out my sump that was wet/dry, and adding live rock into the wet chamber area and upping it a bit in the main display did wonders for my tank. My nitrates went to zero and stayed there for years.

I would also like to say how happy I am that so much chemistry is not only being discussed, but just plain known now, as compared to the old days. It's a whole new day restarting my system.

 

[brandon429]

Can we get specifics on your tank>? Id like to be able to know system to system how much nitrate will be converted, so we can plan bioloads accordingly to get zero.