Why do bioballs get bashed? Scientifically...

[disc1]

Someone post links of peer reviewed work measuring the reductive benefits of live rock alone, its the only way to get specific.

I'm sorry, but I can't find anything that measured live rock one way or the other. So neither of us gets that benefit.

It would be a very hard thing to study, since not all rock is equivalent. And again, it isn't the rock but the bacteria involved. That's the population that matters. If you have all the rock in the world but no denitrifying bacteria it won't turn over a single molecule. If you have one deep rock with a high population deep inside, then it might turn over a larger amount.

The only way to quantify it is based on bacterial population, not live rock amount. Trying to quantify it based on live rock amount makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[disc1]

Even if you were right and the amount of denitrification was negligible (and it might be especially in tanks started with dry rock) then what benefit would bioballs add?

You seem to be a big proponent of bioballs. Explain how you think bioballs reduce nitrate.

 

[brandon429]

That sounds reasonable. On a slight side note tho, if we found denitrification occurring in the biofilm matrix on sand grains in a 1/2 inch bed (the old knowledge said you had to have a deep bed) then why can't it occur on the biofilms of the bioballs? Biofilms are oxygen restrictive...thats why they claim we don't need deep beds anymore. They being the dudes who write the articles you link


Also no I don't think bioballs reduce them hope I don't miss that point. I just think live rock doesnt and we've been theorized a lot but really can't harness that for benefit, even when setting up many tanks specifically around that goal. Id like to have clearer direction on how to harness that benefit repeatedly. Like dosing of calcium and alk for example, we've got that down to a t.

nitrate being reduced by live rock is one of the old arguments in reefing I guess, but since its not clear like our ion dosing anecdotes are all we have.


I think there's a reason formal articles don't exist on the matter of live rocks alone as a reductive substrate for no3, its too hit and miss to design anything around. You may or may not get it as you said, sounds good to me.

Simply stated, if live rock did what all the assertions claim it did, we could get consistent results and someone making an article would have no problems getting results on paper pertaining strictly to live rock. The theory still stands I can see, live rock reduces nitrates though we don't know how much, what kind of rock does it, and how this changes over time in the aquarium. We extrapolate that it does by studying similar media and then making the leap. its an easy leap for those with zero nitrate systems to believe, its an old adage for those who've stacked and treated live rock perfectly only for it to fail at reducing nitrates in the presence of the slightest bioload.

 

[sail33]

I'm no longer a teacher because I am now chief scientist for a biotechnology company.

David,
I don't know you personally but I understand what you are saying. As far as I'm concerned, you are more than welcome here.

I find your input clear, scientific and added to the forum without a personal agenda. Please do not be put off by those who make a debate personal with insults.

Stick around.

 

[swcc]

I took live rock fully cured from a lfs, drove home ten blocks and put it in my pico and installed all the corals. seven years ago, there was no cycle due to obvious reasons. There was no live rock dieoff because there was nothing to die on it...the coralline, pods, and coral hitchhikers remained etc

what biological differences would be had by waiting...eg applying dry rock cycling times to fully cultured lr?

Even though enough bacteria are present to eliminate ammonia and nitrate from rising in the water column(zero on the test kits), this does not mean bacteria are not still working continually on the die off present in the live rock...
So when you add a bio-load on top of the short cycle you drastically increase the amount of bacteria(overly active biological filter producing too much N and P and voila algae bloom). Secondary to this, while the bacteria that reduce ammonia and nitrite have survived the exposure to air from you moving the rocks from store tank, to transport, to your tank....the anerobic bacteria did not(has to do with rocks sudden exposure to the air). It takes months to build nitrification back up.
Now back in the day stores used to full cure live rock(they 'cooked' the liverock if your familiar with the term)...today the "cured" liverock you buy is nothing like cooked, full cured live rock is...the live rock today is rocks that have been quick cured(algae die off and not giving off ammonia and nitrate) and then put up for sale.

 

[brandon429]

What would happen regarding what you said above if the live rock I bought was from a tank with a larger bioload than mine, so it went into a cleaner environment, not a dirtier one and the live rock was from a ten year old reef tank not a vat of base rock...those were two critical points in your statement but that's not how it worked out in my tank

I got to pick pristine lr chunks out of the main display 240


Not that these details impact the direction we've arrived at that the variables are too pervasive to predict how much reduction one gets from live rock


Also, I'm not convinced brief emersion allows for complete emptying of the inside of the rock or that the biofilms encasing the reducing bacteria would be breached/dessicated that fast. It certainly won't happen with nitrifiers, so this may be kind of another stretch we're making...

 

[Anemone]

(sigh)

You're the only one making stretches. Because YOU can't do it in a 5 gallon nano, then obviously it doesn't work. If you have nitrate in a 5 gallon nano with live rock, then you have too great of a bioload (not surprising, since a 5 gallon really isn't big enough for ANY fish).

Do what you want, think what you want. We're obviously not changing your mind, because you obviously know everything. Have fun with that.

Kevin

 

[swcc]

What would happen regarding what you said above if the live rock I bought was from a tank with a larger bioload than mine, so it went into a cleaner environment, not a dirtier one and the live rock was from a ten year old reef tank not a vat of base rock...those were two critical points in your statement but that's not how it worked out in my tank

I got to pick pristine lr chunks out of the main display 240


Not that these details impact the direction we've arrived at that the variables are too pervasive to predict how much reduction one gets from live rock


Also, I'm not convinced brief emersion allows for complete emptying of the inside of the rock or that the biofilms encasing the reducing bacteria would be breached/dessicated that fast. It certainly won't happen with nitrifiers, so this may be kind of another stretch we're making...

while you maintain it is 'pristine' it is not cooked, fully cured liverock. You have used(for lack of a better term) liverock that has been doing it duty as biological filtration in another tank and thus carry with it all the ramifications of uncured rocks.
Exposure to air kills anaerobic bacteria off... the bacterial 'soup' destabilizes and it needs to be built back up. If your rock had been given time to show reduction of nitrate through a proper extended cycling process it would be working for you vs against you.

 

[brandon429]

Kevin I was reviewing options with swcc. that's twice you've said that, it's more helpful if you'll spend time combing the web for the links I asked for.


Swcc, so you are saying rock from an established reef tank wasnt cured yet...what should I have done

So when I xferred the live rock from a bag of water to my tank it drained all the water out of the inside, dried out the biofilms and killed it?

What if I kept it submerged the whole time, no ten seconds of air...would it have reduced? So regarding the cooking...that's what will make the live rock foster the correct bacteria and conduct water to the regions correctly? tell me about your cooking options. Tell us the cooking process that makes live rock do this job.

Kevin it bothers you I disagree, but that's good to hold you guys to what you are saying. Not one link has been posted I requested, please find one.
From the lack thereof hopefully you can see why I'm not buying it. I'm not trying to sell you on the inability of live rock, just the op, he asked for a comparison. I thought telling him the same stuff rehashed for years and not consistently evident was misleading.

What's not misleading is to say the ability for live rock to degas nitrate is so wildly variable it's a non issue, don't include it in your considerations.

 

[disc1]

Not one link has been posted I requested

And not one link have you posted to the contrary.

 

[swcc]

Kevin I was reviewing options with swcc. that's twice you've said that, it's more helpful if you'll spend time combing the web for the links I asked for.


Swcc, so you are saying rock from an established reef tank wasnt cured yet...what should I have done

two things...
My favorite is what they call cooking... You put it in a dark container with fresh salt water and a powerhead... you change the water 100% weekly and do this till it stops leaving detritus at the bottom of the container(at least 2 but more like 3 months). Then put in tank, cycle(short cycle is fine here) and do a very slow stocking...
next option 3 month+ cycle in tank. Problem with tank cycle is you cannot monitor the shedding if you have substrate and it is a bear to clean out the shedding weekly.
second option tends to be good enough but it is not truly as effective as the first.
The main idea here is to have the rock in a condition of not providing any nutrient to bacteria...this allows for the bacteria present in you tank to be working close to 100% off the bioload of your livestock in your tank and their waste...thus N and P are not overproduced and you get bacterial denitrification taking place vs a battle with algae for the nutrients.

 

[brandon429]

David yes I have no links, stalemate...null hypothesis doesnt usually get the link as I was hoping to place the burden of proof on the majority but I noticed you don't disagree the activity is highly variable, ranging from non evident to wholly evident, so the op should be told that.


Swcc that's a neat option, I can't discount that having not ever tried it, nicely written man. Above all what you write is a specific action to perform and that's something new.

It lends me this thought-after five years in a tank will the cooked live rock retain special characters that make it different from rocks that weren't pre cooked?

 

[reefgeezer]

:deadhorse::deadhorse: or :headwalls::headwalls: It's like a car wreck. I keep looking even though I know I shouldn't.

 

[cherubfish pair]

I've used bio-balls on several of my reef tanks and have never had a bad nuisance algae outbreak on the tanks with them.

 

[swcc]

It lends me this thought-after five years in a tank will the cooked live rock retain special characters that make it different from rocks that weren't pre cooked?

I'm glad you asked that... the reality is over time just like any filter your biological medium(sand and rocks) get dirty. Husbandry is the primary key to success. The real key to longevity is understanding that your substrate is a filter and should be cleaned and replaced...same goes for your liverock... keep it clean and do the right things to keep the tank as low in nutrient as possible and it will work for you. Of course, some folks will find there comes a day when ya gotta remove the rock and cook it(again or for the first time).
Matter of fact I just added the rocks from my old biocube to my current tank(couple weeks ago)..they had been supporting the tank for a couple years, were visually algae free, and yet I cooked them for over six months till they stopped shedding detritus and thus were not providing nutrients and adding to the bioload.

 

[ReefJuice]

Thats important to keep in mind since the topic is comparing bioballs and rock and nitrate. we have been falsely told that live rock and the bacteria within will reduce nitrates to the point there is a measurable difference, it wont. it will happen on paper, but you'll never be able to measure it whatsoever.

This the article you were looking for?

Yeong Shyan Yuen, Seitaro S. Yamazaki, Takashi Nakamura, Gaku Tokuda, Hideo Yamasaki,
Effects of live rock on the reef-building coral Acropora digitifera cultured with high levels of nitrogenous compounds,
Aquacultural Engineering, Volume 41, Issue 1, July 2009, Pages 35"“43
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.aquaeng.2009.06.004

 

[brandon429]

Did you just link me an article I have to pay to read? I tried to click the expanded abstract, didn't work maybe it's cuz I'm on a cell phone.


So summarize it for us or post the open article so I can read it.


Does it measure the effects of nitrate pre and post live rock, and does it state whether the live rock was aquacultured? Id like to be able to see it.

 

[ReefJuice]

You might be able to find a full-text version. I'm a student and have student access. You should be able to read the abstract. It won't let me link full-text. (prob because I have student access). You can try google searching the title too, I found other links that let me open different parts of the paper.

 

[brandon429]

Also before I read this it might be fair to say it's rather hard to find the specific info...

I hope the article addresses variability issues between substrates, a recurring theme in this thread.

At this point id like to see any material aimed at live rock, anything with measurements. Finding out what we need to arrange to get consistent results in a tank will be great

 

[brandon429]

I tried, can't access even the abstract. Basically if you can't post the full article that's just mean there is good data in there