Why do new hobbyists have so much trouble with ich?

[Sk8r]

There are a lot of reasons. Sort of in order of importance....
1. new hobbyists are buying a lot of fish. Every time you buy a fish, you're running a risk, and new tanks are acquiring their populations one fish at a time because they're not 'strong' enough to have a bunch at once---and because quarantine tanks are small.

2. Water quality New hobbyists often don't test beyond nitrate and ammonia,and get fish before they realize they need to test more than that. Water with a low alkalinity is a frequent problem, water with unstable salinity---no autotopoff. The philosophy of buying fish before equipment leads to problems. Trying to operate with no skimmer, no refractometer, no alkalinity test, and while overstocking... are all problems down this track.

3. Buying sick fish. Very many tender-hearted new hobbyists will see some shy, weak-seeming fish and want to help him by introducing him to the nice new tank where they plan to make him healthy. What's going on in reality: the fish is carrying parasites. Buying healthy fish is a learning curve, and it frequently means an active, pushy, and obnoxious fish is the healthy one. Look at belly (should be plump-ish, no white poop)...look at gill covers (tissue should not be showing underneath and the gills should not be flaring). Look at skin, fins should not be ragged. Watch the fish's swimming: is it energetic? Ask the owner to demonstrate the fish is eating aggressively. And provide that food for him.

4. Buying from the cheapest source. ...not always the best deal. Ask around.

5. Sharing quarantine equipment with your DT. No. Don't. Not nets, not sponges, not thermometer probes: if it's been in qt, it needs NOT to be in your DT.

If you're doing everything right, you will very rarely see ich or other disease at all, and if it shows it will show up in quarantine, not in your DT. Give your quarantine its full 4 weeks (some go 6) and be serious about it. If you're seeing ich develop in fish you're buying---buy from some other source. Clean source matters! and if a seller's tanks are infested, they're not a clean source. I have every sympathy for the difficult life of fish store owners and plead with people to buy local if you possibly can, but if you have gotten infested fish from a source, don't go right back for another.

 

[kurt_n]

...and if it shows it will show up in quarantine, not in your DT. Give your quarantine its full 4 weeks (some go 6) and be serious about it...

I think this (above) is why people have so much trouble with it. I get the feel that the majority of people starting out don't even bother with a QT. They want a fish tank, and they want it now. Most have their DT set up and cycling before at QT even comes on to the radar screen. And at that point, it's "too late" to set it up.

This sets you up for the 2nd part of the problem when you suddenly have ich in your display tank. At that point, you see all these "reef safe" meds that get rid of ich. They must work, right? Or they wouldn't be for sale! The ich "is cured" after using the meds... but it actually isn't, you're just seeing the normal life cycle of the parasite. But as a new aquarist, you don't know that yet. And in goes the next fish without QT, and voila... the ich reappears because it was never gone in the first place. And now with two fish, things just got that much harder to treat outside the DT. And the cycle continues.

Totally agree with you about being new and buying fish. My very first fish (a clown, of course) died (in my *QT*) due to a bacterial infection around its eye. I remember buying the fish because of its unique markings and "birthmark" around its eye. It looked "cool" to me at the time. It was only after a couple weeks in QT did I realize that "cool" marking was a bacterial infection that wasn't going to get better. Lessons learned in this hobby are expensive.

 

[hkgar]

I think this (above) is why people have so much trouble with it. I get the feel that the majority of people starting out don't even bother with a QT. They want a fish tank, and they want it now. Most have their DT set up and cycling before at QT even comes on to the radar screen. And at that point, it's "too late" to set it up.

Guilty as charge. I have 15 years of reefing. Been through a 40, then to 90 and now a 180. Never had ick, until 6 months into my 180 and that was a year and one half ago. Wiped out 8 of 9 fish that I had at the time.

I played Russian roulette and, as all will, finally lost. Now I wouldn't be with out a QT

Please, please, please, you and all newbies - GET A QUARANTINE TANK!

That is as emphatic as I can be here.

 

[snorvich]

Good advice above. Read the stickies!

 

[peasofme]

everyone should follow these rules to the letter. buying a fish without using these rules is just wasting your money.

 

[JammyBirch]

I think a QT is a good method of bringing new fish to the party. My opinion is that it's not a must. There is data for both cases but I don't see the need if you buy fish from reputable shops, add fish only if you current setup is dealing with the fish that are already there and most importantly maintaining water parameters correctly.

The more I read the more the last part, water parameters, seems to be the key. One example of this is my friends tank, he ordered a fish and it came in with ich, cloudy eye and white spots. My first reaction was don't put it in the tank, his response was ya right. He added it to the tank, and two weeks later the fish looks great, powder blue tang.

His comment was that if environment is good the fish will naturally battle things on there own. He has been doing this for years with no loss...yet.

Just a thought, again I agree a QT is a good idea I don't think it's a must.

 

[JMorris271]

I think a QT is a good method of bringing new fish to the party. My opinion is that it's not a must. There is data for both cases but I don't see the need if you buy fish from reputable shops, add fish only if you current setup is dealing with the fish that are already there and most importantly maintaining water parameters correctly.

The more I read the more the last part, water parameters, seems to be the key. One example of this is my friends tank, he ordered a fish and it came in with ich, cloudy eye and white spots. My first reaction was don't put it in the tank, his response was ya right. He added it to the tank, and two weeks later the fish looks great, powder blue tang.

His comment was that if environment is good the fish will naturally battle things on there own. He has been doing this for years with no loss...yet.

Just a thought, again I agree a QT is a good idea I don't think it's a must.

What can you say?

 

[snorvich]

And for those that do not quarantine, welcome to the fish diseases forum.

 

[JammyBirch]

What can you say?

Ah...QT is a good idea, but not mandatory. I don't run one yet, I'm just starting out too. I'm going to learn just like everyone else. There is more than one way to do things, this topic is bounced around a lot. If it where the only way to have a successful tank no one would talk about it because we'd all have one, just like a skimmer. No one asks if they need a skimmer, even HOB sump guys have them.

Just say'n, ah that to be exact.

By the way I'm not trying to stir the pot, I'm just sharing some info.

 

[Sk8r]

Good luck with that. Keep your water quality spot on and you WILL fare better than those who don't so long as your luck holds.

 

[DavidinGA]

I think one of the top reasons new tanks (not necessarily new hobbyists) get ich is because the tanks are too sterile. The bacteria levels are still low and not fully matured; that is an unforseen contributor to stress in a new setup that people seem to ignore.

If you look at people who have serious wipe outs from ich *most of them are newer tanks (again not necessarily new hobbyists). Old mature systems handle stress and therefore ich much much better (not that ich can't wipe out a mature system but it doesn't seem to be as common imo).

 

[Sk8r]

It's an interesting question: I don't think I've ever read a study on it. Certainly the tendency of new tanks in new hands to bounce about in salinity and other readings is not helping the fishes' resistence to the pest. Once it swims up from the sandbed it's got a limited time to find a susceptible host or die, and good slime coats are one barrier that matters.

 

[hkgar]

Interesting theory put forth by David. In my earlier post I called going withoiut QT was Russian roulette.

In retrospect, it was a new - less then 6 month old - tank. That of course only strengthens the argument to newbie to GET a QT. Inexperience and new tank may lead to disaster.

 

[edinphilly]

With the popularity (especially amongst newer folks to the hobby) of smaller tanks I think you have to look at QT from a different perspective.

If the average newbie enters the hobby with a display tank of 40g or less (and may not even have a sump) he or she is limited in what they can stock in terms of quantity and size. The few fish I first put in cost me less than 50 bucks total. I looked at it as costing me more to set up a quarantine than replace fish that may or may not eventually get sick and die. For me, it was a no brainer not to quarantine. Worst case they all die, and I replace.

If I were starting a larger tank with more fish and more costly fish doing a QT would be a no brainer.

Also, my dogs are part of the family but my fish are part of the decor. I do my best to provide good husbandry but don't get too upset over a loss. Certainly others may feel more attached and a QT makes sense. I think there are two sides to every coin and for some reason people get a little emotional on this topic.

For the record I lost a couple fish to poor acclimation before I learned to do it properly, and I've had a couple clown gobies refuse to eat. Otherwise no losses to disease or water quality.

 

[GilliganReef]

I have been in the saltwater hobby off and on for now 10 years. I have yet to setup a QT tank. I have only experience Ich or any fish diseases once. It was with my first two fish I added to my 29G 10 years ago. Since then I have taught myself to be better at checking fish and keeping my parameters steady. I know in the future when I go from my 40g to a larger tank I will definitely will setup a QT.

 

[snorvich]

Yes, there is the "small tank perspective" or the perspective that aquaria are decorations. However, once the embedded base cost of your fish is high enough, it is a no brainer about quarantining. However, there is a certain morality that says: "If you remove an animal from an environment where it is not self sufficient, the keeper of that animal should provide the best possible care". In my pond, where my Koi will outlive me, and some of which cost more than what most people spend on their entire setup, quarantine is not a luxury.

 

[edinphilly]

Yes, there is the "small tank perspective" or the perspective that aquaria are decorations. However, once the embedded base cost of your fish is high enough, it is a no brainer about quarantining. However, there is a certain morality that says: "If you remove an animal from an environment where it is not self sufficient, the keeper of that animal should provide the best possible care". In my pond, where my Koi will outlive me, and some of which cost more than what most people spend on their entire setup, quarantine is not a luxury.

So here is where I am confused. Assuming no system upgrade (which would be an optimal time to start quarantining) how does a small tank person start QTing? For example let's say I wanted to add a more expensive fish which I wished to QT. What would be the purpose if it then goes into a healthy tank which may have diseases not showing symptoms?

As far as the morality of QT and husbandry I find it funny where lines in the sand get drawn. So you're okay with the high % of fish that died at the wholesale level so you can get yours, but once it's in your care it's another story? Or even if you go completely captive bred (everything living in your system) all your equipment comes from manufacturers that are supported by the larger industry. I'm certainly not suggesting others adopt my views and I'm not looking to adopt others' views.

 

[kurt_n]

So here is where I am confused. Assuming no system upgrade (which would be an optimal time to start quarantining) how does a small tank person start QTing? For example let's say I wanted to add a more expensive fish which I wished to QT. What would be the purpose if it then goes into a healthy tank which may have diseases not showing symptoms?....

That's the perfect example of why I think it's important to quarantine everything from the start.

You're correct... if you have fish in the DT that have just been dumped in there and could possible harbor disease, quarantining new fish at a later stage is kind of pointless. I suppose it gets down to how long the existing fish have been in the DT. If they've been in there long enough and not shown any signs of disease, you've effectively (and gotten lucky doing it) used your DT as a QT. But if you QT everything from the start, you're greatly improving your odds of keeping everyone healthy in that DT.

 

[peasofme]

the fish that you started with in the DT likely is still has ich but is surviving with it. when you put in a new fish you are bringing in a different strain of ich which the first fish is not protected against. in a large dt a fish can 'get away' from ich. in a small qt a fish cannot. this forces ich to show itself in the qt so you can treat it. qt is also used to get a fish eating without competition.

 

[formsix]

As far as the morality of QT and husbandry I find it funny where lines in the sand get drawn. So you're okay with the high % of fish that died at the wholesale level so you can get yours, but once it's in your care it's another story? Or even if you go completely captive bred (everything living in your system) all your equipment comes from manufacturers that are supported by the larger industry. I'm certainly not suggesting others adopt my views and I'm not looking to adopt others' views.

I'll bite. No, I am not okay with the large # of fish that die at the wholesale level. And I think on a whole most people aren't okay with that -- and that's part of the reason why capturing fish with cyanide has gone out of favor. But there are still problems for sure. Personally, I try to buy captive bred when possible, and largely avoid species that have dismal rates of survival in captivity. My live rock came from aqaucultured rock off the gulf of Florida, as did my CUC and many of my other critters. My corals are all aquacultured from specimens that have been in the trade for years.

But, I am still supporting the general industry, mainly through the equipment I purchase. I struggled a bit with the ethics of reef keeping when I got started, but have since came to the conclusion that the trade does wayyyyyy more good for general conservation than it does harm. We have the opportunity to learn amazing things about the critters that inhabit our tanks, and this knowledge can be translated into increased awareness and conservation. At least at this point in time, I think those benefits outweigh the negatives, though for sure there is plenty more that can be done.

FWIW, I think the commercial fishing trade is a much, much, bigger problem, and that is an industry I do not support in any way at all.