Why werent any LFS at the swap?

[eyebedam]

I know the The AC made a sweet donation of the nano for a grand prize but I was surprised that none of our LFS had any type of tables or displays set up. Theres was alot of people there & they would sure have gotten some buisness that day. Unless I just missed them I didnt see anyone from Emerald bay, Fins, or AC. Those are the 3 biggest lfs around here. I didnt expect to see the fish bowl or fin din since there really more into fresh anyways. :rollface:

 

[Oldschooler]

For what it's worth... The reef clubs, internet, etc. are killing the local fish stores. When the MTRC was started, it was never intended to be a way for people to circumvent paying retail prices at LFS, but for many, this is exactly what the fraternity is about. It (the MTRC, anyway) was ORIGINALLY intended to help educate people about the hobby, increase local knowledge of keeping and reproducing the animals, and generally making the world a better place by teaching people the alternatives to buying only wild-collected, stressed animals.

The members of the MTRC should be GRATEFUL that one local fish store CREATED the MTRC, and the others support it AT ALL. It's literally like inviting your enemy into your home. If anyone doubts me, spend some time reading over the posts in this forum. Every other article is about where to get such-and-such the cheapest, or how to make such-and-such yourself, or...? The Fish Bowl was mentioned... When was the last time ANYONE in the MTRC has even BEEN to the 'Bowl, let alone PURCHASED anything? The guys that own that store are TOP-NOTCH people (I've worked for them), and yet, they are desperately trying to sell that store (due to slow sales and health issues). And a pity-purchase here-and-there is NOT what I'm talking about. If we ALL don't support local retailers, they won't be there to get new people into the hobby OR to stimulate those already into it. Ask yourself, truthfully... How MANY people walk through your home, see your tanks, and then turn around and jump into the hobby? Then ask yourself how many people walk into the AC and do the same? It's ALL connected- the local hobbyists NEED the retailers as a vital link in the chain. Without them, it all unfolds. Wait and see.

And finally, as a more-than-lapsed member of the MTRC, I fully expect, and less-than-care about the impending "gang mentality" of everyone pouncing on this post and arguing with me (I'm sooo used to it)... But the fact is, anyone watching the local news will see all of the businesses leaving the area due to lack of business (J.C. Penny, Media Play, Old Navy, Toys'R'Us, etc...). Only when the e-trade has COMPLETELY destroyed retail as you've all come to know it will you see the correctness of what I'm saying and the folly of your ways.

You asked... I have answers.
Happy reefing!

 

[rcmike]

here we go again

 

[Oldschooler]

Hey, Mike, the question was asked. And I have conversations all the time with every lfs in town. You post about DIY stuff, 'cause it's what you know. I post about the retail of this stuff, 'cause it's what I know. I should be a few weeks away from retailing this stuff again, so I've re-vistited the board.

A question was asked that I could answer, and no one else bothered to post. If it bothers you, you can ignore it, just as I do 99% of the other posts...

 

[rcmike]

I'ts not that I doubt you that the internet is hurting the LFS, I know that. It is just that I see a heated debate coming on and getting out of hand. If everyone can keep a level head I am all for discussion. I just don't want the club forum shut down again.
I go to the LFSs as much as I can. I don't mind paying a few dollars more for most stuff. Now if it is a $200 item that is marked up to $400 I'll go online because some of us just can't afford to pay that much and keep going, especially when you add our rediculous tax! If it was maybe $425 or $450 I may go ahead and get it at the LFS. I buy nearly all of my livestock in LFS's (well, what I don't trade for). I'll gladly pay more for a fish or coral that I can see is in good health than getting one I don't know about for cheaper.

 

[greystreet41]

1. Most people on this forum are reefkeepers, hence why would they frequent Fish Bowl? Of course when I was in FW I spent a lot of time there. They haven't expanded their SW section, much less their corals so why would I entertain the idea of frequenting there other than to look for a used setup as they often have? I'm not even a member of MTRC, but how could a small group of gang members be the demise of a LFS?

2. I love going to AC. Their great to me there. I have no clue what AC revenues are, but I do know I often have to look for a parking spot, wait for assistance, and wait in a check out line. There again, if the MTRC gang mentality is "KILLING" AC I just don't see it. I don't know what AC's business plan is, but it doesn't appear to evolve around the area reefers. They have a relatively small dedicated section for corals, and a large SW fish section, but I don't see MTRC having fish swaps. Although there are a few people dabbling with breeding clowns. I hardly think AC loses any sleep over that. As well, one would be a fool to pay retail for some of the dry goods on the shelf if they could "circumvent" it with a small group order or a solo order from online for that matter. Sorry, I just don't believe in paying twice as much for something in the spirit of "keeping it local." Even with me having ways to "circumvent" a LFS I still spend a small fortune there on things such as 1) a healthy fish 2) a coral I have to have 3) smaller dry goods and the like. 4) Nor do I get the idea from AC they take exception to a small group of people exchanging frags.

3)It appears to me the area may not be able to support multiple aquatic stores as opposed to area reefers trying to bring down the existing ones. But then again, I could be wrong. By the way, welcome to capitalism.

so hey, we can engage in pompous, melodramatic debate in this thread until it gets locked in the spirit of the precedent set in the first reply.
cheers!

as a sidenote, I would LOVE to see a LFS have a section of "frags." Why not adapt to the market? Afterall, I'll buy a frag for $20 apiece, spend $100 before I buy 1 colony for $70. But heck, what do I know, I'm just a customer.

 

[fishdoc11]

I believe the question was about why more lfs didn't show up at the swap not how the reef hobby is killing the lfs's(which is an oxymoron)
The only lfs that was interested couldn't make it at the last minute. What I saw at the swap was a great opportunity for any lfs that was interested to sell livestock and drygoods and to interact with 200 reefers from all over this half of the country. It truly was a great swap with lots of traffic and lots of opportunity for anyone that choose to take advantage of it
IMO to be successful an lfs is going to have to evolve over time to take advantage of the changing needs of the customer(just like any business). That is the lfs's responsibility not the hobbyists Trying to make us feel guilty for that doesn't make anybody look good.
FWIW the main things I look to my lfs's to provide is healthy desirable livestock(which has been lacking at ALL of the lfs's in town from time to time) and things that are large or heavy like salt, liverock and aquariums. The other things are food(which I rarely if ever buy online) and items which I need at the moment and don't have time to wait for, which can be lots of things. To be honest most of the things I buy equipment wise(Good pumps, skimmers etc...) cannot even be found at any of the lfs's in the area. Either because they are out of touch with what the more advanced reefing community demands or because they just don't want to stock it. The vast majority of the time I go into an lfs in town the product I am looking for is not there. If it's not there I can't buy it. If you tell me you can order it I can too. Sometimes I will let whoever it is order the product for me sometimes I won't.
As far as price I am more than willing to pay a little more(5%-10%) to get an item locally. Will I pay 50%? 100% more.....NO
Also FWIW some stores have gotten into etail to change with the market and also be able to provide better prices for their local customers(Premium Aquatics comes to mind). This may be something to think about.
It's good to "see" you Robert
I have wondered where you have been.
Your overall tone in this post however is negative and antagonistic and not likely to be taken kindly.....maybe this was your purpose? You make some good points but the way you made them is what I question.
Ebay did initiate the reef club and I think the "founding members" will always remember that. Wanting something in return aside from that memory and acknowledgement of that fact is kind of silly and not realistic IMO. FWIW Joe Wall was the one that initiated this particular forum.

Robert(oldschooler) did create the MTRC logo(at my urging since we are giving credit where credit is due )BTW for people that don't know and it has turned out to be a very nice one

The club has gone in the direction IT went. Not in the direction any one member has taken it. We have had members try to do too much and try to do too little. In the end this forum on RC is the busiest in the state and has turned out to be a great resource for local reefers....which, of course, is it's purpose

 

[Mikeyjer]

I go online most of the time because most of the local stores are wayyy over priced. Inorder to keep going, like it was mentioned, I have to resort to online shopping. I don't go to the Fish Bowl cause in quite a few occasions I've been in there, they have dead sw fish in there and didn't look like they've maintain it well. Plus they really do outprice AC most of the time.

 

[Oldschooler]

Mike, for the record (before the thread becomes that which all seem to dread so much: "out of hand")... I KNOW you're one of the "good guys". You and your wife HAVE always supported the LFS. My reply was not directed toward you, nor do I intend to single out every one of you I've met and label you "good" or "bad". If someone takes umbrage to my comments, I say, "grow up, and thicken your skin".

To greystreet: I cannot recall if I know you or not, but... You are correct, AND incorrect... I know for a fact that the internet in general and the MTRC in particular has adversely affected EVERY LFS. I'm not going to go into OTHER people's business in a public forum for the sake of buttressing my points. Frankly, I don't have to. I'm a messenger. If you don't like my message, "oh, well".

However, your query of why SHOULD someone use a LFS if they don't carry whatever it is you want is quickly dismissed by the OBVIOUS fact that MOST of us LFS (okay, I'm not one yet) can and will SPECIAL ORDER equipment and corals, and usually at a discounted price if you bother to ASK. Many times, the smaller stores need to place orders for just a few things, and your one item- even if they sell it at or just above their cost- helps the smaller stores meet their minimums. The Fish Bowl may not dominate the reef scene for various reasons, but the original point remains salient: When all the stores are gone, so too will be the hobby as you know it.

Listen, everyone, there's nothing to get your feathers ruffled over, here. I'm simply relaying the patterns I've seen my business (the retail of exotic animals) over the last two decades. Chiefly, one could look at the bird market. It's been completely destroyed through forces similar to (but not exactly the same as) that which is affecting fish/coral retailers. Reptiles and amphibians are currently struggling with the same forces. Both the bird and reptile markets are in decline from previous years, and this is hurting ALL of us bird and reptile keepers. I'm just TRYING to make you guys understand, before it's too late. If you want to get defensive and argumentative, that's fine, too. Those who know me know I've never claimed to be Julian Sprung. But most who know me know I DO know what I'm talking about in regards to the HOBBY and the BUSINESS. The original question was asking why the LFS weren't present, and I'm simply answering the question with "Because they are too busy keeping their butts afloat to gratuitously support that which is helping to kill them".

Comprende? No harm? No foul?

 

[Oldschooler]

Fishdoc, I gotta get going to work, so I had to skim your post (will read it better, later)... Sean and I started the reef club (not just the logo), while we conducted Emerald Bay. Whether you want to conveniently forget all the work we did initially is of no importance to me, as it does not detract from the validity of my statements. But it is good to "see" you again, too!

But also, my statements might be taken as "antagonistic" (whatever that means, since I was not singling anyone out, personally), but the question was asked. Do you all want truth, or just a version of a truth that makes everyone feel better? I came here this morning out of curiosity to see the state of the club, not necessarily to stroke egos or ignite flame wars. A person asked a question, it was buried beneath posts of what everyone's been buying, and I answered the question as honestly as I could.

I will address the issue of "adaptation" by the stores at a later time (perhaps late tonight, if I'm not "banned" from the forum).

So everyone, please... Relax... Drink some Kalkwasser... Turn up your chiller... Breeeeeeathe....

Later!

 

[rcmike]

I'd rather use Mrs. Wages, it's much cheaper.

 

[boofer]

I agree with Mike and Chris. I personally would rather shop at a LFS, but if the same item I can get online (mainly equipment) is marked up 100-300% in the LFS, I just cant do it. Its nothing against LFS, but all about MY funds. This hobby is Sooo expensive most people HAVE to DIY, shop around, join a reef club, etc. Theres very few out there with an endless supply of money. And thats the same way about people starting up...Whats the biggest reason someone stays away from this hobby? Id say it would be the price. You tell someone to get into this hobby in say a 55 could cost them around a grand or more to do it right...there gonna run away But if you say hey you can make this or buy this used or whatever to get it cheaper they might not run. Then you have them buying corals and fish from the LFS (which most would rather do anyway). If you really think about it most people go online for Livestock because they cant find it locally not the prices. Hell a fish/coral with shipping is going to cost you more (usually) than if you went in and got it from a LFS and you never see it beforehand. I think its more about selection there. If you think e-tailers are making lots more money, why not go into that instead? If the LFS cant compete then they cant compete. They need to evolve or die. Its not like it was 15 years ago where everything was from the LFS. You need to market right, just like every other business out there. I believe the clubs help the hobby tremendously and the LFS does also as long as they support there customers and have a decent selection at decent prices. One particular store screwed me when I started and Ive never bought anything from them since. That how I am though. You try to bend me over Im not coming back
Im not ****in on anyones shoes here, just stating my opinion on the subject PEACE

 

[fishdoc11]

Ebay did initiate the reef club and I think the "founding members" will always remember that. Wanting something in return aside from that memory and acknowledgement of that fact is kind of silly and not realistic IMO.

Might want to read the whole post before you comment Robert

Another FWIW. I really wish I would have known about RC before I started reefing. I probably wasted at least $3000 if not more in things that I eventually found useless or not appropriate for what I was trying to. And most of those were bought from lfs's, some were bought online. This forum/RC is in part here to help people avoid that and I think it does a pretty good job if taken advantage of.
Chris

 

[foggy54]

Roberto, Nice to see you back on the boards, ( I think). lol

 

[greystreet41]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6557714#post6557714 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Oldschooler

Listen, everyone, there's nothing to get your feathers ruffled over, here...If you want to get defensive and argumentative, that's fine, too.

Sorry, we've never met.
You make comments as the ones you made in your original post in this thread and then suggest others may want to be defensive or argumentative? Also, you said you have answers...I'm sorry, but they're opinions.
I have great reservations about MTRC directly and adversely affecting the LFS. To me, that's not on the hobbyist, but the entrepreneur...Chris already posted that and that sums it up nicely to me. If MTRC was that venomous to the LFS, then if I were an owner of a store, I would periodically scour this forum, take note of what livestock, supplements, and other dry goods are popular at that given time and make attempts to carry said merchandise. Business/Marketing 101 is all it is. Know your potential clientele and the market trends.
Aside from our banter, I think I read you are taking on a new venture, if so, sincere best of luck with that.

 

[c_stowers]

I agree with Robert that internet business is making it more difficult on the LFS. But this is happening everywhere, whether reef clubs exist or not. This is definately not caused or magnified by MTRC. It is IMO the duty of the LFS to adapt to the changing needs of the reef/fish community. I still do alot of business with the LFS's in town. I purchase salt, sand, food, livestock, and the occassional powerhead or supplement. But just as in everyone elses case, I cannot afford to pay 100% markup on some items. I try to help out the LFS's by telling them this straight to their face, and their response is always that they cannot get the item at anywhere near the price I can find it online. If this is the case, why don't they change suppliers? I know that most if not all of us really appreciate having all the LFS's. I know this because when I stop by them, I often run into another member.

 

[rsteagall]

To maybe answer the question about why Fins or AC didn't attend. Yesterday I talked to both Tim w/Fins and Ken w/AC. Both of them asked me what I did for a living. I told them I was a Systems Administrator. They then asked me how would I like to be a Systems Administrator on my day off. Both occurances we had a laugh about it. I know I hate when I get home and someone calls me about a computer questions after I've been working on them all day. The last think I wanna do is FIX A COMPUTER or work on a networking problem.

Yesterday was the first time i've been to Fins. Tim was nice and knowledgeable and I picked up some Mexican Turbos from him. I then hopped over to AC and picked up my 6 line wrasse. Buying just these 2 items online and having them shipped would have definitely cost more buying them online. Plus, they weren't in a limbo shipment getting abused over a day. As far as other items, I saw an overflow that was priced great at AC and will go back and pick it up. Other items of course are priced a little high. You just gotta know what you're shopping for and know your prices to determine where you get the best value. Value not always being the cheapest price.


We're lucky to have such good LFS' in the Middle Tennessee area that support saltwater aquaria. Other places aren't so lucky. We're also lucky to have a reef club so active!

 

[acro-wrasse]

Oldschooler's delivery may have been a bit harsh but what he is saying is basically true.

If you buy just about everything online, ultimately you will have to buy everything online (with the taxes that will come + shipping) because there will not be a local fish shop to visit.

Large cities will always have some shops, but smaller towns are not going to be as lucky.

The simple fact is, people will always seek out inexpensive options(myself included), but when we all do it at once, capitalism kills!

Questions:
If a LFS was at the swap, would they have priced their wares at normal prices?? If so, would you have bought them??
If they lowered them to "swap meet" prices, would you go to their shop the following week and pay regular prices??


Not easy choices for them to make.

 

[rcmike]

One question for the LFS's. Why is the markup so much? In my other hobby, remote control airplanes and helicopters, most of the time you can get things about the same price locally as online. It is a specialty market as well. Is it just you distributors are ripping you guys off? I know that the online shops can sell for less because of the volume but surely not that much??

 

[gflat65]

Well good morning, Sunshine.

I don't remeber you being involved with setting up the frag swap... We've had the opinions. Now for the facts. I contacted EBay. They are in the middle of changing the store around and are short handed, so couldn't afford to send anyone. The Critter had planned on having two tables the whole time. Chris' birthday is also the 14th, so his wife made plans for them-he could not make it. Because he wanted to support us, even though he was not going to be able to make it and had planned to, he gave is ~$350 worth of raffle items for the swap. Seems to me he wants to still support us. I thought someone else had spoken to Fishey Business and forgot to check until it was too late.

I'm no business owner, but I know that it does very little to berate and belittle potential customers when you make an announcement that you are about to have your own store. Not the best marketing skills... Difficult to deal with attitudes shy more people away than MTRC (or any club for that matter) ever has. This forum is for Middle Tn. It just so happens that a large percentage of the people that post here are in MTRC because they see how we are supportive of their questions and provide the years of knowledge I am proud to post behind. I am proud of this club and what it has done and will do in the future. The internet was around long before the club was... I have always supported the LFS and made that clear in the posts. In the newspaper article to promote the club and swap, it is stated that without the LFS support, we would not have been as successful as we are.

We certainly appreciate the efforts Sean and yourself put into getting the club off its feet. However, we certainly can't discount the work that has been done since to try to make the club more supportive of the growing interest from area reefers. We are entering our third year of being a club and things are continuing to grow. That is a direct reflection of how LFS have been supporting us. We would not be picking up extra members if someone weren't telling about us...

I don't have the passion for argument Oldschooler does, so this may be the last I have to say on the subject. We do need to support LFS' as much as we can. Funny, but usually when I am in a LFS, I typically see two to three people from the reef club, so I know they are supporting... Short of building a shrine to commemorate EVERYthing ANYone has done to make the club successful, I don't know what more we could DO...