Will leather corals kill sps?

[reefslugs]

I am mostly a hard coral keep. I have been loosing all my sps and last night I found one of my octopus coral looking really bad. It's like they are spitting out their guts. I have a large green finger leather and a large rose anemone setting close to each other. I know some days the rose comes in contact with the leather. I kept thinking there was something wrong with the water, but everything checks fine. It hit me last night that maybe the leather is putting out chemicals in the tank, killing other corals. Any advice?

 

[Surf&turf]

Leathers will put off toxins.

Do you run any carbon?

 

[luther1200]

I had a lot of problems in my tank when I had a large Sarcophyton (Toadstool) in there. Even though I ran GAC 24/7 is till was bothering the surronding SPS. I had to remove it.

 

[Andrew17030]

In the Reefkeeper vol. two it talks about biological warfare between ALL corals. It seems that even scientists are not sure why two corals may coexist peacefully in one tank and not in another. Many factors including proximity, flow patterns, light positioning to name a few can have an influence. Even with that knowledge not much is concrete in the world of reefkeeping according to what I have read. I do see that people with succesful mixed reefs will almost always run carbon usually in a reactor.

 

[Stanley-Reefer]

I have pincushions that touch sps without problem--my avatar is a 12" wide green leather that rubs my hawkins blue all day....I do run carbon....

 

[Nanook]

There has been MANY TOTM's that had both SPS and leather corals.

 

[preef]

I have both with no issues and I do not run carbon.

 

[Mikefromaz]

I am an obvious late comer to this discussion. That at being said, I ran an 80 gal. Reef for approximately 10 years mixed LPS and zoos without a single mortality. I knew of the possibility of chem. warfare between leathers and stories but went ahead bolstered by similar conversations about carbon and upstream..all of it. 72 hours later every one of my seventeen species of coral including the two Tonga mushroom leathers had disintegrated. I had lots of carbon. The water reeked of turpentine. I won't make that mistake again. Will all reefs with mixed stonies and leathers fail? Is it worth the risk?

 

[boostd2valve]

I have both in a little 28g nanocube, I also have random green leathers growing out of rocks right with my Sps. Both are happy just make sure they don't shade any light from them as that has been my only problem.

 

[maikoa02]

I generally keep my sps toward the top half of my tank and and leathers an lps at the bottom half making sure that they don't come close to touching.

 

[Epicreefer]

It may depend on the volumes of coral types as well. For instance I manage a tank filled with leathers and gorgonians and sps don't like it. Lps seem ok with it. A leather or two is probably going to work but the more you add the more issues you could face.

 

[vitz]

leather corals, under the right circumstances (proximity, flow direction, species) can nuke sps corals easily. i've seen it happen while working for a major importer/wholesaler in the los angeles area. without question. i think it's very prudent to run carbon/excellent skimming when keeping the 2 types together.

 

[Mikefromaz]

Another consideration with leathers is if they die. They release Turpenze, as a sort of "last act". My 80 gal. reef was pristine, physically isolated from touching other coral. Three days after introducing the Tonga shrooms the tank couldn't have been more dead if someone poured a gallon of bleach in it. It was quick and violent. That was my experience.

 

[vitz]

leathers don't need to die in order to release terpenes-it's those terpenes (and possibly other substances) that they release while alive, that nuke sps's. they're ALWAYS producing them-this is pretty much proven by observation.

the release of terpenes will be faster and greater per time when a leather is decomposing, *probably*, (i've never seen any measurements done regarding the actual rate of production vs how much is stored in a leather's tissue, so it's only a 'reasonable assumption'), thereby creating a 'surge' of the toxins.

 

[Mikefromaz]

Vitz ......It seems like this chat might be degrading into semantics. I had nearly 10 years experience on my last reef without a mortality except for a snail or two. It was the Tonga who took it out, all 80 gal. and everything in it except the fish. I submit that when a well attended and maintained tank dies from an obvious source the "why" isn't worth a can of beans. Enough said.

 

[vitz]

i'm trying to tell you that the statement you made suggesting that leathers release terpenes as a 'last act' is incorrect. that's all. it's something they ALWAYS do.

it's merely a correction of an ambiguity so others don't mistakenly conclude from your statement that leathers ONLY release terpenes when dying.

no need to take it personally

 

[dr.big]

i have a leather with SPS for five years without a problem and i do not run carbon. That is my experience...

 

[vitz]

indeed, many keep leathers w/ sps/lps corals w/no ill effects.

one or two leathers in a large enough system usually presents no problems. it doesn't mean that addressing terpene production by leathers shouldn't be dismissed, or dealt w/ pro-actively-i've dealt with plenty of hobbyists who've had issues w/ a stony coral that was in close proximity to a leather's 'upflow', only to have those issues disappear by moving either the leather or the stony coral.

MOST tanks that are successful keeping both leathers and hard corals in 'large' amounts of each, long term, usually have carbon and skimming running in their system, and won't be able to keep both groups 'happy' without it.

once you're dealing w/ a hundred(s) (of) leathers upstream from a hundred(s) of sps's in a coral 'run', the issue becomes quite clear, and irrefutable. the 'nuking' we observed took only a matter of hours (less than 24) for lots of sps 'frags' (aquacultured/maricultured imports that had already 'settled in to the system) to burn beyond repair. as soon as we moved the leathers into their appropriate trough, things settled down again. for this reason, we ALWAYS tried to keep the sarcos and sinularias in the last trough in the system before the sump/skimmer processed the water for return to the system.


a hobbyists's tank w/ one or two leathers isn't really an example that can point to anything conclusive, as far as terpene production by leathers, or what harm they can do.

there's certainly effects possibly occuring that we don't observe-just because a coral doesn't die, or *appear* to be stressed, doesn't mean it's not getting stressed

running carbon makes a whole bunch of sense, for more reasons than leather terpenes-there's *alot* of allelopathic chemicals being produced all the time by most, if not all corals and algaes-running carbon simply helps to removes the *potential* issues that can be caused by those substances. yellowing compounds are another. it's that whole 'an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure' thing.

am i saying that running carbon is a necessity for success? or that one's sps's are guaranteed to stress or die if you keep leathers with them in an aquarium?of course not. there are also other means/tacks one can take-like water changes, for example

i do hope that folks won't take a post saying that someone keeping a leather or three w/ sps's for 5 years is justification for dismissing terpenes, or carbon use, as a non issue

having said all that-i've also run plenty of tanks w/ either no carbon, or intermittent use only, w/ no issues-with and w/out leathers present in the system. i also performed regular large wc's and skimming as part and parcel of my maintenance regimen

hth

 

[Oldude]

I have a few in my sps dominated tank with no harm done to the sps.

 

[Mikefromaz]

i'm trying to tell you that the statement you made suggesting that leathers release terpenes as a 'last act' is incorrect. that's all. it's something they ALWAYS do.

it's merely a correction of an ambiguity so others don't mistakenly conclude from your statement that leathers ONLY release terpenes when dying.

no need to take it personally

Personally? Hardly. I have no doubt that many folks have leathers withother corals without issue. The first time I put tonga mushrooms in my reef tank with carbon and a skimmer rated at twice the tank all heck broke loose. You see its hard to be philosophical from a first time experience such as I had. I don't expect people to believe I am posing as some reef guru. The only thing that matters is I learned not to repeat my first experience.