outprowllin
In Memoriam
God bless your dog, Kevin. .......Jaime
Zoanthids are they toxic?
- Thread starter kevin_kramer
- Start date
I am sorry but this whole thread does not makes sense. In the original post the poster included the following link as one of the sites he visited to do his research in his attempt to save his dog:
http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html
I quote from that article:
"Palytoxin was first isolated from the soft coral Palythoa toxica. Several species of Palythoa are used in aquariums, but do not produce the toxin."
"Supplies are extremely limited as it is only found at low concentrations in the corals that do contain it."
Furthermore, there is no mention of exactly what species of zothanids that the dog came into contact with, no picture, nothing.
How anyone can then come to the conclusion that all button polyps are potentially lethal and even touching the water that house them is potentially deadly, is beyond belief.
http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html
I quote from that article:
"Palytoxin was first isolated from the soft coral Palythoa toxica. Several species of Palythoa are used in aquariums, but do not produce the toxin."
"Supplies are extremely limited as it is only found at low concentrations in the corals that do contain it."
Furthermore, there is no mention of exactly what species of zothanids that the dog came into contact with, no picture, nothing.
How anyone can then come to the conclusion that all button polyps are potentially lethal and even touching the water that house them is potentially deadly, is beyond belief.
TippyToeX
Premium Member
Mushroom
I cut and pasted this from a thead about how toxic zoo's are from Eric Borneman
Palytoxin is found in varying amounts in all zoanthids studied. The larger Protopalythoa are the most studied, and the amounts vary with more present during the breeding season. It is found in the mucus and the tissues, and yes some is released into the tank. The purpose of this toxin is thought to for antipredation. Anthony Calfo has become poisoned three times from propagating them...ask him how it feels! I am very sad to hear of the dog's loss, and I hope the tragedy of this keeps people aware of these things.
I speak over and over again about coral toxins, not to mention the many bacteria that are known human pathogens that normally gorw on the surfaces of corals, in the sand bed, etc. I am amazed that more accidents don;t happen in this hobby besides occasional infections.
Zoanthids are to be treated with extreme respect. I wash my hands throughly before and after putting them in my tank, and esepcially after handling corals, and even more especially after working with zoanthids.
As far as toxicity of species, there has not been complete research into this...zoanthids are generally porrly studied. It very well could be that there are non-toxic ones, but I doubt it. The reason is that these are soft bodied animals without other protection, indicating chemical protection...and very few things eat them.
Finally, do remember that most of things in our tank are toxic - corals, sponges, bristle worms, venomous fish, algae, cyanobacteria, dinoflagellates, bacteria, etc. With all these posions and toxins, the chances are pretty good to see allergic reactions, hyperacute responses, or just unpleasant stings. And, if there bcomes a medical issue, going to the hospital in most areas and dealing with uncharcterized marine venoms is not exactly something mot physicians (or vets) will know how to deal with.
I hope that will help. They all have the toxin just in different amounts it seems.
I cut and pasted this from a thead about how toxic zoo's are from Eric Borneman
Palytoxin is found in varying amounts in all zoanthids studied. The larger Protopalythoa are the most studied, and the amounts vary with more present during the breeding season. It is found in the mucus and the tissues, and yes some is released into the tank. The purpose of this toxin is thought to for antipredation. Anthony Calfo has become poisoned three times from propagating them...ask him how it feels! I am very sad to hear of the dog's loss, and I hope the tragedy of this keeps people aware of these things.
I speak over and over again about coral toxins, not to mention the many bacteria that are known human pathogens that normally gorw on the surfaces of corals, in the sand bed, etc. I am amazed that more accidents don;t happen in this hobby besides occasional infections.
Zoanthids are to be treated with extreme respect. I wash my hands throughly before and after putting them in my tank, and esepcially after handling corals, and even more especially after working with zoanthids.
As far as toxicity of species, there has not been complete research into this...zoanthids are generally porrly studied. It very well could be that there are non-toxic ones, but I doubt it. The reason is that these are soft bodied animals without other protection, indicating chemical protection...and very few things eat them.
Finally, do remember that most of things in our tank are toxic - corals, sponges, bristle worms, venomous fish, algae, cyanobacteria, dinoflagellates, bacteria, etc. With all these posions and toxins, the chances are pretty good to see allergic reactions, hyperacute responses, or just unpleasant stings. And, if there bcomes a medical issue, going to the hospital in most areas and dealing with uncharcterized marine venoms is not exactly something mot physicians (or vets) will know how to deal with.
I hope that will help. They all have the toxin just in different amounts it seems.
CleveYank
20 Years and Over
Zoo's hypersensitivity, probability & fate
Zoo's hypersensitivity, probability & fate
I shared your observations mushroom from the immediate,
but given the loss of a family pet that the 5 year old in that household probably worshipped and the rest there I didn't feel an interogation on type and pics of the deadly buggers that did in their pet was justified.
And like your implication I wonder about the almost total frenzied scare that I read in some of the posts. SOME for you auto flamers out there.
But up until now I chose not to comment further than my condolences.
Since hand washing before and after are part of my tank maintenance rituals I and others who do this while bare handed in the tank probably will not perish from zoo goo getting into our systems, but hey accidents happen.
Since we are on the subject of accidents & mortality here.
I will conclude with an assumption and 2 questions & a disclaimer(rheotorically stated too again for the auto flamers that may be lerking)
I bet there were 20 or 30 dogs hit and killed by cars that day alone...state regional or nationwide...who knows.
At any rate, does that mean that all cars or all drivers or any of the above are more or less dangerous to dogs???
Or are they also freak accidents in which chains of events in time and the intertwining of events that lead to the accident of dog and car dueling in which, unless lucky, dog always loses?
DISCLAIMER.
My reply is not meant to offend or insight any anger or deal with this sad situatiuon in any less light than what it was...an unfortunate thing that happened to someone in our local (for some) and online community.
Zoo's hypersensitivity, probability & fate
I shared your observations mushroom from the immediate,
but given the loss of a family pet that the 5 year old in that household probably worshipped and the rest there I didn't feel an interogation on type and pics of the deadly buggers that did in their pet was justified.
And like your implication I wonder about the almost total frenzied scare that I read in some of the posts. SOME for you auto flamers out there.
But up until now I chose not to comment further than my condolences.
Since hand washing before and after are part of my tank maintenance rituals I and others who do this while bare handed in the tank probably will not perish from zoo goo getting into our systems, but hey accidents happen.
Since we are on the subject of accidents & mortality here.
I will conclude with an assumption and 2 questions & a disclaimer(rheotorically stated too again for the auto flamers that may be lerking)
I bet there were 20 or 30 dogs hit and killed by cars that day alone...state regional or nationwide...who knows.
At any rate, does that mean that all cars or all drivers or any of the above are more or less dangerous to dogs???
Or are they also freak accidents in which chains of events in time and the intertwining of events that lead to the accident of dog and car dueling in which, unless lucky, dog always loses?
DISCLAIMER.
My reply is not meant to offend or insight any anger or deal with this sad situatiuon in any less light than what it was...an unfortunate thing that happened to someone in our local (for some) and online community.
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gregt
Premium Member
Bottom line. There are zoos that can and will kill you. They are in our tanks. You should always use caution and act accordingly. If you believe otherwise, I highly suggest for litigious reasons you keep it to yourself.
There is no harm in being cautious if your particular coral is not toxic, but the converse situation is not a pretty one, as the originator of this post has learned.
Better safe than sorry.
There is no harm in being cautious if your particular coral is not toxic, but the converse situation is not a pretty one, as the originator of this post has learned.
Better safe than sorry.
Yes Gregt I agree with you better safe than sorry. However, the message that seems to have got through is:
"Don't buy any zothanids if you want to be absolutely safe."
While such a message is indeed safe it is also irresponsible. Yes on the one hand we have to consider the potential accident that zothanids can cause we also have to consider the financial impact that such a message will have on the aquarium trade and the many people that makes a living from it.
What I am trying to see is if we could CLEARLY IDENTIFY exactly which species of zothanids was responsible for the accident so people can take extreme caution when handling such species.
I have since done a search and have came upon this thread which has pictures of Kevin_Kramer tank:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115517
As you can see, he has a mixture of zoanthus and palythoa in his tank. On the bottom right there is a large colony of palythoa which could well be the culprit, but he also has some individual palythoa polyps on one zoanthus colony.
From what Eric Borneman said there is very little research into exactly which species of zothanids has what toxin and at what concentration. However, one would assume the little reseach that has been done were mainly concentrated on species such as parapalythoa and Palythoa toxica which are known to contain Palytoxin, as researchers are generally interested in Palytoxin itself and its potential medical applications.
Before I came upon this whole debate, I had always assume that any zothanids that has "large" polyps are Palythoa and potentially dangerous and any zothanids that has "small" polyps are Zoanthus and are much safer. As Zoanthus tends to be the ones that exhibit the many wonderful colour varieties one would assume most zothanids in the aquarium trade are relatively safe.
Thus could we change the message to something like:
"As it is not known exactly which species of zothanids has what and how much toxin it is advisable to handle them with extra caution and not leave them accessible to pets and children.
However, most of the small polyp colourful varieties that come to the aquarium trade are probably safe though you are advised to take the same precaution."
"Don't buy any zothanids if you want to be absolutely safe."
While such a message is indeed safe it is also irresponsible. Yes on the one hand we have to consider the potential accident that zothanids can cause we also have to consider the financial impact that such a message will have on the aquarium trade and the many people that makes a living from it.
What I am trying to see is if we could CLEARLY IDENTIFY exactly which species of zothanids was responsible for the accident so people can take extreme caution when handling such species.
I have since done a search and have came upon this thread which has pictures of Kevin_Kramer tank:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115517
As you can see, he has a mixture of zoanthus and palythoa in his tank. On the bottom right there is a large colony of palythoa which could well be the culprit, but he also has some individual palythoa polyps on one zoanthus colony.
From what Eric Borneman said there is very little research into exactly which species of zothanids has what toxin and at what concentration. However, one would assume the little reseach that has been done were mainly concentrated on species such as parapalythoa and Palythoa toxica which are known to contain Palytoxin, as researchers are generally interested in Palytoxin itself and its potential medical applications.
Before I came upon this whole debate, I had always assume that any zothanids that has "large" polyps are Palythoa and potentially dangerous and any zothanids that has "small" polyps are Zoanthus and are much safer. As Zoanthus tends to be the ones that exhibit the many wonderful colour varieties one would assume most zothanids in the aquarium trade are relatively safe.
Thus could we change the message to something like:
"As it is not known exactly which species of zothanids has what and how much toxin it is advisable to handle them with extra caution and not leave them accessible to pets and children.
However, most of the small polyp colourful varieties that come to the aquarium trade are probably safe though you are advised to take the same precaution."
Scott Lamb
New member
Kevin, I am saddened by the loss of your dog. Any loss of a pet would be difficult with me.
I have 1 large and 1 huge colony of zooanthids in my tank. I have always thought my tank has grown much slower than my friends. I have suspected chemicals from either my zoanthids and mushrooms as the main cause. I know whenever I touvh the zoanthid, I get this nasty slime on my hands that I immediately wash off. It just "feels toxic" and I think we need to be careful with them and any coral. I couldn't imagine licking my fingers with this slime on them.
Scott
I have 1 large and 1 huge colony of zooanthids in my tank. I have always thought my tank has grown much slower than my friends. I have suspected chemicals from either my zoanthids and mushrooms as the main cause. I know whenever I touvh the zoanthid, I get this nasty slime on my hands that I immediately wash off. It just "feels toxic" and I think we need to be careful with them and any coral. I couldn't imagine licking my fingers with this slime on them.
Scott
reeffantic
New member
Not only Zoo's are toxic
Not only Zoo's are toxic
It is not only Zoo's that are toxic. I remember reading in the paper last year about a family who brought home some, I would guess SPS found on a beach, and decided to boil them to clean them up. Needless to say, the family became quite ill and had to be hospitalized due to some undeterimined poison that was in the coral and leached out into the air they were breathing. We have a some what of a dangerous hobby and need to respect our pets as much as a person who keeps poisonous reptiles etc...
Not only Zoo's are toxic
It is not only Zoo's that are toxic. I remember reading in the paper last year about a family who brought home some, I would guess SPS found on a beach, and decided to boil them to clean them up. Needless to say, the family became quite ill and had to be hospitalized due to some undeterimined poison that was in the coral and leached out into the air they were breathing. We have a some what of a dangerous hobby and need to respect our pets as much as a person who keeps poisonous reptiles etc...
This according to University of Otago, Aukland, New Zealand.
One of the most toxic substances on planet earth is palytoxin. This is a naturally-occurring organic (in the sense of being composed primarily of carbon and hydrogen) compound obtained from coral, and its toxicity is quite extraordinary ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ it has been estimated that as little as four micrograms may be enough to kill a human. To give you some idea of what a truly tiny amount this is, a grain of salt weighs about one hundred micrograms. Or to put it another way, one teaspoonful of palytoxin would be enough to wipe out the population of Auckland, New Zealand (1.5 mil). Thankfully, the coral from which palytoxin is derived is found only in Hawaii, in a single tidal pool measuring 2 metres by 1 metre.
From the Ferris, Inc Biological Weapons Research Paper for the United States Government.
The US classifies biological agents as pathogens, toxins, or other agents of biological origin, such as bioregulators/modulators (BRMs).
There are many sources of toxins that are naturally occurring from animal or microbial species and that have been synthesized in the laboratory. Many are available commercially in large quantities. Some of the toxins are:
Ã"šÃ‚² Saxitoxin: from marine plankton (dinoflagellate), 10 second death from suicide
capsule.
Ã"šÃ‚² Tetrodotoxin: oral poison from newt, puffer fish, and blue-ringed octopus.
Ã"šÃ‚² Palytoxin: coelenterate (soft coral animal), bleeding death through break in skin
(injectable).
Skeet
One of the most toxic substances on planet earth is palytoxin. This is a naturally-occurring organic (in the sense of being composed primarily of carbon and hydrogen) compound obtained from coral, and its toxicity is quite extraordinary ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ it has been estimated that as little as four micrograms may be enough to kill a human. To give you some idea of what a truly tiny amount this is, a grain of salt weighs about one hundred micrograms. Or to put it another way, one teaspoonful of palytoxin would be enough to wipe out the population of Auckland, New Zealand (1.5 mil). Thankfully, the coral from which palytoxin is derived is found only in Hawaii, in a single tidal pool measuring 2 metres by 1 metre.
From the Ferris, Inc Biological Weapons Research Paper for the United States Government.
The US classifies biological agents as pathogens, toxins, or other agents of biological origin, such as bioregulators/modulators (BRMs).
There are many sources of toxins that are naturally occurring from animal or microbial species and that have been synthesized in the laboratory. Many are available commercially in large quantities. Some of the toxins are:
Ã"šÃ‚² Saxitoxin: from marine plankton (dinoflagellate), 10 second death from suicide
capsule.
Ã"šÃ‚² Tetrodotoxin: oral poison from newt, puffer fish, and blue-ringed octopus.
Ã"šÃ‚² Palytoxin: coelenterate (soft coral animal), bleeding death through break in skin
(injectable).
Skeet
buggle
New member
Kevin--
So sorry to hear about your loss. My condolensces to you and your family. I recently lost a dog and it was heartwrenching. Like many others, I knew they were toxic but didn't know it was to this magnitude. As an avid zoanthid lover, I will be more careful and keep my dogs and loved ones away when I'm working with them. Take care.
Buggle
So sorry to hear about your loss. My condolensces to you and your family. I recently lost a dog and it was heartwrenching. Like many others, I knew they were toxic but didn't know it was to this magnitude. As an avid zoanthid lover, I will be more careful and keep my dogs and loved ones away when I'm working with them. Take care.
Buggle
jarhead
New member
I am very sorry about the loss of your dog. I saw the title of this post for a few days now, but didn't read it since I am starting my first tank and don't know anything about corals or Zoanthids for that matter. Boy am I glad that I finally read it. I bought LR for the tank and have some "growth" on it. Now I am paranoid that it could be a species of Zoanthids. It looks something like this:
I have 2 kids in the house and afraid that they might stick their hands in the rubbermaid stock tank where the LR is being kept. When I get home, I will take some pictures and post them for ID.
I have 2 kids in the house and afraid that they might stick their hands in the rubbermaid stock tank where the LR is being kept. When I get home, I will take some pictures and post them for ID.
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kevin_kramer
New member
Here is the best picture I can get of them. I am 90% sure this sis the ones. I am suffering an hair alge problem and when I was fragging the corals I was also pulling out alge. The zoos are growing on the alge.
Newreeflady
New member
Thank you for posting this. I am so sorry to hear you lost you're baby, i'm an animal lover, too, and I feel your pain and am sad for you.
I have a pomeranian who just might have died from this one day as i'm constantly taking out things and fragging them, in fact, the other day I fragged zoos in a container on my coffee table. If i'd have walked away for a second I hate to think of what might have happened.
Thank you for the warning. I'm so sorry for your loss
Angela.
I have a pomeranian who just might have died from this one day as i'm constantly taking out things and fragging them, in fact, the other day I fragged zoos in a container on my coffee table. If i'd have walked away for a second I hate to think of what might have happened.
Thank you for the warning. I'm so sorry for your loss
Angela.
Just Fishing
New member
Kevin
Sorry for the loss of your dog I know how that can be!
I also want to say thanks for sharing that with us as it has made me think.
:sad2:
Sorry for the loss of your dog I know how that can be!
I also want to say thanks for sharing that with us as it has made me think.
:sad2:
Desolas
New member
That is too bad, very tragic.
We all need to keep in mind the obvious, everything in our tank is probably toxic. The animals main line of defense is toxin.
I always keep my animals lock away when I'm doing anything in tubs. One of my cats ate a Neon Dottyback that had launched itself out of the tank, the cat was very ill to the point he almost died.
After handling zoanthus I always wash my hands, but that didn't prevent me from getting a massive eye infection. Several hours after handling some while doing tank maintenance I rubbed my eye. I had scrubbed my hands well with soap I had thought, but not well enough. My eye was swollen shut and was leaking yellow mucus. It was a painful lesson, but not nearly as painful as losing a friend to it.
I wish you well.
We all need to keep in mind the obvious, everything in our tank is probably toxic. The animals main line of defense is toxin.
I always keep my animals lock away when I'm doing anything in tubs. One of my cats ate a Neon Dottyback that had launched itself out of the tank, the cat was very ill to the point he almost died.
After handling zoanthus I always wash my hands, but that didn't prevent me from getting a massive eye infection. Several hours after handling some while doing tank maintenance I rubbed my eye. I had scrubbed my hands well with soap I had thought, but not well enough. My eye was swollen shut and was leaking yellow mucus. It was a painful lesson, but not nearly as painful as losing a friend to it.
I wish you well.
SO very sorry aout your loss!! Thank you for alerting
everyone! I spend a lot of time working in my tank and
then with my parrots and new puppy, you may have
saved a life or two here.
What really bothers me too is that there were some
people at nano-reefs.com making "fun" of the zoo danger
I have never been aware of it fully until now. Someone
with the e-mail know-how should send this page over there!
Again, my condolences, and thank you for sharing this
very important info with all of us!
everyone! I spend a lot of time working in my tank and
then with my parrots and new puppy, you may have
saved a life or two here.
What really bothers me too is that there were some
people at nano-reefs.com making "fun" of the zoo danger
I have never been aware of it fully until now. Someone
with the e-mail know-how should send this page over there!
Again, my condolences, and thank you for sharing this
very important info with all of us!
