Algae Scrubber Advanced

[herring_fish]

Wow,

There was a lot of info there. ...a lot of, cover your behind detail and you would expect but still, they did a lot of work. I was reading for references to the wave amplitude and how it affects efficiency.

When I went to the Smithsonian, they were pumping out tons and tons of light. I don't think that you will overdo it.

 

[jalisco]

I've been reading a ton over the past few days but I haven't been able to find any opinions on an ats above a rdsb by anyone who has had either.
I am in the gathering equipment stage of a 29 gallon build. My used tank came with a CPR sump that has a skimmer, rubble chamber, macro chamber and heater chamber. I was planning on that being my filtration until I read that skimmers remove copepods the mandarin dragonet needs and nutrients the sps needs. I plan on a mixed reef leaning towards sps dominant.
What would the relationship between a dsb and an ats be if the two were the only filtration with some real reef rock in the DT? Do they enhance each other or does one deprive the other?
Would letting a skimmer come on for four hours a day when the ats light are off do anything positive without hurting the copepod population or removing too many of the sps's nutrients?

 

[Brummie]

Algae Scrubber Advanced

I've been reading a ton over the past few days but I haven't been able to find any opinions on an ats above a rdsb by anyone who has had either.
I am in the gathering equipment stage of a 29 gallon build. My used tank came with a CPR sump that has a skimmer, rubble chamber, macro chamber and heater chamber. I was planning on that being my filtration until I read that skimmers remove copepods the mandarin dragonet needs and nutrients the sps needs. I plan on a mixed reef leaning towards sps dominant.
What would the relationship between a dsb and an ats be if the two were the only filtration with some real reef rock in the DT? Do they enhance each other or does one deprive the other?
Would letting a skimmer come on for four hours a day when the ats light are off do anything positive without hurting the copepod population or removing too many of the sps's nutrients?

I think it's a great idea. I've been toying with the idea myself, as my sump is nearly totally empty, apart from the scrubber. The general scientific thought is that coral exudates increase substrate bacterial action whereas algal exudates increase waterborne consumption. Reading stuff about the RUGF, I wonder if a combination of both would be beneficial, before the water gets to the display, or at least a portion of it.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

I would second-guess whoever said that a skimmer remove the nutrients that SPS needs. While it's true that a skimmer will remove proteins, which is food, this is also why a lot of people turn their skimmer off during feeding so that the inhabitants can use as much of the food as possible. But skimmers serve many purposes and who is to say what all of those are, for sure. If they were that bad, then why are there so many people with successful SPS tanks with skimmers?

Not sure on the copepods issue either, but I have a fellow club member who runs a beautiful 75 with lots of SPS and a mardarin who is fat and happy, system runs a filter sock, skimmer, carbon, GFO, Kalkwasser and she never adds any copepods. Then there's my tank, scrubber only, no sump, tons of pods, and my mandarin died, go figure. You would think it would be the opposite.

Anyways, to your DSB question, I don't have an answer. Never ran one, but I can't see how they would conflict with each other.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Reading stuff about the RUGF,

You been reading PaulB's thread haven't you?

 

[Brummie]

Algae Scrubber Advanced

You been reading PaulB's thread haven't you?

Maybe

 

[jalisco]

I think it's a great idea. I've been toying with the idea myself, as my sump is nearly totally empty, apart from the scrubber. The general scientific thought is that coral exudates increase substrate bacterial action whereas algal exudates increase waterborne consumption. Reading stuff about the RUGF, I wonder if a combination of both would be beneficial, before the water gets to the display, or at least a portion of it.

Toying with the idea of a skimmer on an ats's dark time or ats atop a rdsb? And thanks for the addition reading list. Have to look up exudates and RUGF. I'm guessing it's not a remote under gravel filter.

But skimmers serve many purposes and who is to say what all of those are, for sure. If they were that bad, then why are there so many people with successful SPS tanks with skimmers?

Could it just be tons of supplements and heavily stocked tank?

 

[jalisco]

Is this the best way to get rid of a double post?

 

[kaskiles]

I think the RUGF is the reverse flow undergravel filter. Instead of putting a bubble pipe down the under gravel pipe, you could put a powerhead on top. Then if you flipped it around and pumped water down, you have the RUGF. I think penguin sold powerheads specifically for it with the fittings and stuff, sponge filter on the inlet...

This one says models 50 and 70 offer both forward and reverse flow:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...=pla&catargetid=530005150000091200&cadevice=c

 

[jalisco]

Just read through several pages on RUGF, I would guess its very susceptible to channeling. Speaking of channeling, what ever happened to fluidized sand beds?

 

[Fredfish]

I was wondering the same thing about skimmers today jalisco.

I found this article, linked here by SanaMonica last year that talks about skimmers and feeding. He also mentions deep sand beds and scrubbers.

I think a scrubber and deep sand bed compliment each other. The ATS will take care of any N and P that find their way into the water column either directly from fish excretion or released from the sand bed.

 

[herring_fish]

I write is every so often. I have tried just about all of the different filtration systems. I like Algal Turf Scrubbers for me but they all work and they all work well. Understand that they all have their upsides and their downsides so I feel that your obvious first thing to do is to find out which one appeals to you the most and make it your primary system. Second, learn all that you can about it to make sure that you don't want to change your mind. Third, make a commitment to only one system. Fourth get it fully running. Then and only then, work on add-ons.

It has been my experience that different systems compete with each other for waste products. If you have two primary systems working at the same time, they can both run at less than optimal levels. If something goes wrong, it is hard to find out what the problem is and fix it.

Instead, make sure that you have your primary system running and then add other things, only as secondary methods. If the primary just doesn't do the job, don't switch, don't add something to supplement its function. Try optimizing what you have or make it bigger.

Add a secondary only to fine tune a well working system and only think of it at that secondary system.

As for a deep sand bed. Dr. Adey was one of the first to advocate them. He saw them as a complementary addition.
What I have found is that they work great, for me, as long as I don't go with an industrial strength version that over powers the ATS.

 

[Brummie]

Hmm - not trying to be a pain in the butt, but surely in most cases live rock is the primary filtration, until it gets clogged up.

 

[herring_fish]

I would think that live rock is secondary filtration. There are very few people that use only live rock by itself, perhaps a few but there is not a big LR only community. ...but, if that is one's primary, great, my observations still hold true for me. It may not be true for everyone.

I am a designer, constant experimenter and beta tester for a few companies.

I had a 55 gallon remote deep sand bed which was about 8 inches deep, as prescribed. The rest of the space was filled to the brim with a special, highly porous dead rock that was sent to me by a company in that business. as an experiment. I seeded this remote tank with a bacteria concoction from another company and in a few days, I hooked it to the main system.

In about 2 weeks or so, my scrubber stopped re-growing algae. I run my tank as a NPS and filter feeder tank. My nitrates and phosphates stayed very low for months, even though I fed my tank with tons of food.

After about a year, my phosphates began to slowly but steadily raise. That is because bacteria does a better job on N than P.

I also tried adding vodka as an experiment because I wanted bacteria for the corals, not because my nutrient levels were high. Guess what happened to my scrubber in about 2 weeks.

Again, my thoughts are just a cautionary tail. They may not hold true for everyone so you can take them with a grain of salt. It is just a standard practice in many disciplines to avoid adding several variables to potential solutions at once and this is what I have observed.

 

[Brummie]

I've stolen this link off the DSB thread and it seems like a good summary of lots of papers which describe the difference between algae and coral exudates. I've got a feeling I'm going to be experimenting again

http://www.nova.edu/ncri/11icrs/proceedings/files/m25-10.pdf

Abstract. Global climate change and direct anthropogenic stress factors lead to gradual replacement of hermatypic corals by benthic algae at many reef locations, a process which is commonly referred to as phase shift. Recent research showed that corals via the release of organic matter and concomitant effects on cycles of matter can act as engineers of reef ecosystems. There are strong indications that reef associated benthic algae do also affect reef ecosystem functioning via organic matter release, but relevant information is lacking. To gain a better understanding of the biogeochemical consequences such phase shifts may entail, a series of comparative studies with corals and algae was conducted in reefs of the Northern Red Sea during four seasonal expeditions in 2006-2008. These investigations focused on the quantity and quality of the organic matter released by both groups of organisms involving dissolved organic carbon (DOC), particulate organic carbon (POC) and nitrogen (PN) along with the respective stable isotope signatures. Planktonic and benthic degradation of the released material were investigated using bottle incubation experiments and in-situ stirred benthic chambers. First outcomes show clear differences between organic matter release by corals and algae, thus suggest effects of phase shifts onto reef biogeochemical cycles.

 

[Vlado4x4]

I have a 260g mix reef and allready have a waterfall scrubber ... super mature. Running over 2 years allready.
I´m thinking of downsizeing to a 100´ish gallon reef. Can i keep running the scrubber i allready have or need to build a smaller one.

 

[jalisco]

I've stolen this link off the DSB thread and it seems like a good summary of lots of papers which describe the difference between algae and coral exudates. I've got a feeling I'm going to be experimenting again

http://www.nova.edu/ncri/11icrs/proceedings/files/m25-10.pdf

When the first sentence is global climate change just know that the studies findings were predetermined. Scientists who refute this redistribution of wealth lose their federal funding. My welding gas supplier says a large part of their business is selling CO2 cylinders to marijuana cultivators. They pump as much CO2 into the room or greenhouse as possible.
In the 70s it was global cooling, CO2 was going to send us into the next ice age. I'll read the article but it's hard to listen to a fishing story when it begins with I saw big foot.

 

[jalisco]

Instead, make sure that you have your primary system running and then add other things, only as secondary methods. If the primary just doesn't do the job, don't switch, don't add something to supplement its function. Try optimizing what you have or make it bigger.

That makes almost too much sense. Instead of throwing out the biggest net possible hoping to catch something, learn what you are targeting and become an expert at one technique. Many of the tanks I see look like they have meth labs under them. Do most people really know how every piece of their system interacts with the other components or inhabitants?
The thing that has steered me to an ATS is that I can't wrap my head around dosers and protien skimmers on the same system. Even if the skimmer shuts off during dosing those nutients and suplements would otherwise stay suspended and available through many many turnover cycles.
So much to take in, sometimes I feel like I need to just set up my tank or I will be stuck forever in the building and planning phase.

 

[wildman926]

That makes almost too much sense. Instead of throwing out the biggest net possible hoping to catch something, learn what you are targeting and become an expert at one technique. Many of the tanks I see look like they have meth labs under them. Do most people really know how every piece of their system interacts with the other components or inhabitants?
The thing that has steered me to an ATS is that I can't wrap my head around dosers and protien skimmers on the same system. Even if the skimmer shuts off during dosing those nutients and suplements would otherwise stay suspended and available through many many turnover cycles.
So much to take in, sometimes I feel like I need to just set up my tank or I will be stuck forever in the building and planning phase.

ATS and Skimmer is all you need. What the algae and animals exude, the skimmer removes. They compliment each other.

 

[salty joe]

When the first sentence is global climate change just know that the studies findings were predetermined. Scientists who refute this redistribution of wealth lose their federal funding. My welding gas supplier says a large part of their business is selling CO2 cylinders to marijuana cultivators. They pump as much CO2 into the room or greenhouse as possible.
In the 70s it was global cooling, CO2 was going to send us into the next ice age. I'll read the article but it's hard to listen to a fishing story when it begins with I saw big foot.

LOL. You're not politically correct. I like that!