algea scrubber

Check this out .... oldest reefer enthusiast and he applies ATS in his system .. trying to beat this method huh?

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/7-paul-baldassanos-40-year-old-reef

Excerpts from Paul Baldassano's Reef - 40 Years in the Making ...

"Since I don't want the algae growing on my corals, I have built a five-foot algae trough. [Editor's note: This is a filtration system known as an algae scrubber, with algae reducing nutrients in the tank.] It is a plastic trough that is positioned at the tank's surface along the rear. It is positioned partially under the main metal halide lighting, and it shields the tank's back glass from light, giving the tank a much more natural appearance. The trough provides favorable algae growing conditions by having swiftly flowing water that is only a half-inch deep and located a couple of inches from bright light. I also installed a cement-encrusted plastic window screen (algae loves to attach to cement) in the trough which can be rolled up, removed and cleaned. What more could algae want? The trough is fed from the skimmer's outflow, so it uses no power and takes up no room that I would use for other things. It is also practically free to build one using a PVC fence post sliced in half. "

I would say ATS folks are winning the battle ...

Paul
 
wmilas said:
To chime in a bit. I have a 600 gallon display, 1000 gallon system. Mainly sps with a few acans ect. I've been having a HARD time feeding enough into my system to keep my now pretty large coral colonies happy. through experimentation I know its a food and not a light issue. I have an ATB Xlarge cone skimmer plus I run filter sucks every other day. I also dose VSV.

I'm at the point where I'm dosing half a gallon of VSV a week trying to keep my feedings under control. If I op my feedings the coral are happy but I experience an outbreak of hair/turf ect in frag tanks and on exposed surfaces in the display. Well, no hair in the display the tangs eat it all. But bubble ect. When I back the feeding off, I see a decline in health of the sps. Oh they are still healthy, but nothing like the large feedings. Color fades, growth slows, ect.

I'm in the processes of building the first of 3 large scrubbers to try them out. Each will be 200 sq inches of area, lit by 4 t5 ho 3k bulbs each side. Basically the new "high filtering" scrubber model. I have no problem experimenting and if this actually works, It'll allow me to keep more organic particles in the water which is what I fear I need at this point.

And before everyone freaks out and tells me I don't know what I'm doing, I've been in this hobby for years. I don't care what works, as long as it works. When colonies get large, say basketball size or larger, food and flow DO become big issues. If you don't get food deep in the colony you start to see STN'ing from the inside. It's happened to me and other large reef tanks. My personal theory is that the inner part of the colony that receives less light needs more food to make up the the carbohydrate negative balance... but thats just my theory. Older reef tank keepers know that its harder to keep an large colony over a frag... I want to see if this helps.
Click to expand...

Sounds like an exciting project. I look forward to any results, though I certainly hope they are positive.

My old tank was set up with a very large skimmer and ran GFO constantly. I also made some vinegar/vodka additions along with kalk and 2 part. One observation I made was that there is a definite visible transition when switching to something like this. Many things, including water clarity, overall coral coloration, changed. There were definitely more particles in the water--whether or not those were of particular value or even detriment, I don't know, as I never sampled them. To an extent, the scrubber itself did catch particulates. As far as coloration goes, some corals simply became darker, unless I became overzealous with scrapings, which would cause them to lighten. Again, many things that could be attributed to this--anything from higher amounts of available food or even slightly elevated nutrients, which would obviously be the opposite aim. I can't really say one way or the other, though testing with a photometer didn't suggest the latter. Algae in the display did become substantially reduced. There was still some, as per the usual, but far less than before. The seasons changed then, though, and temps were also cooler on average by a couple of degrees. No water changes occurred during this time (whereas I normally performed 20-30% monthly) and the skimmer was neglected and only emptied (never cleaned the neck or venturi).

So, still some variables that I was never able to personally weed out. I wish I could've kept the tank longer to see how it went in the long term (10 mos isn't really long). I may have had even better results if I had cleaned the skimmer and actually let it run properly. Not a magic bullet like some may say, but for me, a step in the right direction. I had pretty realistic expectations, IMHO, and it did at least meet them, if not very slightly exceed them.
 
TheFishMan65 said:
wmilas, You might also consider bio pellets (sorry for the hijack) . I have not used them, but from what I read they may help. The bacteria they produce can feed the corals and me skimmed out with a skimmer.
Click to expand...

I uses VSV... liquid bio pellets for all intents and purposes :) The amount I use would necessitate a very large bio pellet reactor for the equivalent bacterial population.
 
Amphiprion said:
Sounds like an exciting project. I look forward to any results, though I certainly hope they are positive.

My old tank was set up with a very large skimmer and ran GFO constantly. I also made some vinegar/vodka additions along with kalk and 2 part. One observation I made was that there is a definite visible transition when switching to something like this. Many things, including water clarity, overall coral coloration, changed. There were definitely more particles in the water--whether or not those were of particular value or even detriment, I don't know, as I never sampled them. To an extent, the scrubber itself did catch particulates. As far as coloration goes, some corals simply became darker, unless I became overzealous with scrapings, which would cause them to lighten. Again, many things that could be attributed to this--anything from higher amounts of available food or even slightly elevated nutrients, which would obviously be the opposite aim. I can't really say one way or the other, though testing with a photometer didn't suggest the latter. Algae in the display did become substantially reduced. There was still some, as per the usual, but far less than before. The seasons changed then, though, and temps were also cooler on average by a couple of degrees. No water changes occurred during this time (whereas I normally performed 20-30% monthly) and the skimmer was neglected and only emptied (never cleaned the neck or venturi).

So, still some variables that I was never able to personally weed out. I wish I could've kept the tank longer to see how it went in the long term (10 mos isn't really long). I may have had even better results if I had cleaned the skimmer and actually let it run properly. Not a magic bullet like some may say, but for me, a step in the right direction. I had pretty realistic expectations, IMHO, and it did at least meet them, if not very slightly exceed them.
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I've read posts/theory crafting ect from both sides. Since I've tried the massive skimmer side I thought I'd try the other side and see what happens. To be fair, I did run a dump trough type ATS system 15-20 years ago. However reefing back then was in its infancy. That type scrubber did yellow the water. However we didn't know that it needed to be cleaned every 7 days.. I only cleaned it when it got so thick it was affecting the balance on the dump trough.

I do know I need more food. My corals are way to light in color.. they are starving. Feeding more gets them to color up nicely and explode growth wise. Will some corals brown out with "too much food"? Maybe. Will they then recover? Maybe. However I've never had a coral brown on me with too much organic N&P, its usually from too much inorganic N&P in the water.

The whole thing will be interesting. I can try it myself and know for sure what works best on my tank. And no, my skimmer isn't currently for sale :)
 
I have been reading the thread that is listed below. There are a lot of papers that point to high particulate (including plankton) environments can increase SPS grow several time over, in high or lower light setting.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1843241&page=11


I do believe that the 3D growth scrubber is a good design idea but I disagree with one of the conclusions about why there is less algae at the end where the water goes out of the scrubber. To me, it looks like there is a yellow/brown/orange area in the unproductive side of the scrubber. Too me, this looks like dead, dying or less than vibrantly growing algae.

This leads me to think that water does flow very well in the productive end (let's call that the right end). The algae there is curly, a little like cheato, with lots of spaces for water to flow around and through the strands of the mass. As the water travels to the left, toward the drain (that is at the bottom), the strands get laid down like combed hair.

At that point, the water's path of least resistance starts to be more up and over the algae rather than through it. Since the algae is matted, the water flow drops to almost zero. The water simply passes up and over it so it begins to get starved. The production of algae drops and actually starts to reveres its self as it gets farther and farther to the left. Near the drain, there is almost no growth at the bottom because there is no right to left flow that is going through the algae, only left to right flow going over the dying algae.

I don't know if this would fix the problem but one might consider experimenting with putting an extension tube in the out let port so that the inlet would be raised up to near the harvesting day's high water mark on the right end . That way, the water might"¦might flow through the algae longer as it goes to the left, before it started to find the easiest path to the outlet.

As I posted earlier, I'm not a purist. If you have a good idea that has a slight issue, you can make up for it in other ways and it will still work great. That being said, in Dynamic Aquaria, Dr. Adey went on and on about studies that showed that you need good water flow to the individual strands of algae to maintain good growth. To me, the performance of that type of scrubber just proves his point. (Good thru flow=good growth, bad thru flow = bad growth.)

He also talked about the fact that algae has adapted, over millions of years, to cope with and even thrive in high flow areas so I don't think that healthy strands will brake off at the flow rate that I saw. When my bucket dumps, the water rushes out of the tray a lot faster than water going toward that drain.

So "¦.(I'm thinking) The main limiting factor is matting. If it mats, it dyes. That is why you have to harvest it promptly.

On the other hand, if starving does happen, it's not quite as bad as you might think. That is because, if matting causes it not to get proper exposure to water flow, it is also encapsulated and doesn't reintroduce much back into the tank unless it sloughs off in clumps and is not picked out of the tank for days.

All these things being said, I still think that two sided lighting is a great innovation and 3D growth is a nice
 
Hi Paul, How's that legendary reef tank of yours holding up? Still running your version of an ATS?
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It's actually very good. There are tiny arms sticking out of every nook and amphipods are all over the place. The corals are growing nicely especially the two SPS corals. There are 5 gorgonians that grew some this last few months and many of the fish are still spawning.
So the tank has not changed much in a couple of decades, except some aquascaping which is an ongoing battle due to spawning fireclowns who never like my decorating styles and dig such large holes that the rocks fall towards the front glass.
There is almost no algae now in my tank or algae trough and that is a concern, but a common occurance that will change depending on where I collect water from next summer.
 
where are you guys buying the mesh from? im thinking of making a very large ATS in a 100-150g rubbermaid water trough

if someone gots large ATS link build that would be cool to see.
 
There are a few photos of my "large tank" ATS in my build thread but it was very elementary compared to some of the setups here. Just a basic SantaMonica setup, really.

I got the mesh online from hobby lobby, which is a craft store. It is commonly sold to the craft hobby as a crochet substrate. It's a couple bucks a sheet and available in all sorts of sizes, shapes, and colors. Google terms like "plastic canvas." I got extra-stiff material to keep it from being so flimsy. You need to put a fair amount of effort into roughening the fabric to get the algae to grow and not wash off - this is typically done by rubbing a common bimetal hole saw over the fabric until your arms fall off (really, it takes a LOT of effort! If you're not sore and exhausted your screen probably isn't rough enough).
 
Herring fish, which example/design are you commenting on?

You are right on when you bring up the flow issue. The current suggested flow rate is 35 GPH per inch of screen width. The current design I am running does not have an even flow because I designed the slot in the tube to have small crosscuts, and that is not the correct design (anymore). Crosscuts were originally suggested with the idea being that they will prevent the slot from getting clogged when algae growth progresses up the screen. Since then, the method is to leave the area of the screen that extends into the tube and about 1/2" below the point where it enters the tube smooth (the rest of the screen needs to be roughed up thoroughly), and no crosscuts. Using this technique, the algae has a harder time adhering to the screen because 1) it is too smooth, and 2) the water flow from a 1/8" slot with a 1/16" screen in it only have 1/32" of space on either side of the screen. If you think about it like a built-in control system, flow is the input, growth is the output, as growth increase and 'attempts' to block the slot, the pressure of flow will increase and impede the growth, so there's no way a straight-cut slot with no crosscuts can clog from algae growth.

If you look at this pic from the last cleaning I did:

IMG_9109.jpg


You can see the yellow areas which are indicative of the lower flow areas. Keep in mind that my flow is only 20 GPH/inch, due to a return pump tube sizing issue that I will resolve when I replace the ATS box with my new design.

You are correct that if it mats, it dies, because the light cannot penetrate deep enough through thick algae growth. If it is flooded, like my next design will hopefully allow, the fluidized algae bed should allow more light penetration, and I believe this is one of the reasons why the SM100 design is so great.

wmilas, I think that's great that you're going to build such a big ATS. 3 x 200 sq. in units that's going to be a project! I'm getting a table saw / acrylic blade & router table so that I can make my own custom ATS boxes for tanks I maintain and anyone else who wants one custom made. Let me know if you need any help, I do a CAD design on all mine.
 
I have youtube blocked at work but I think it was post 161. It guess Santa Monica was pointing out that the low part of his 3-D algae growth was because of algae strands braking off.

With a non-surge design, it is hard to eliminate the yellow areas when it gets past harvest time. On the other hand, the extra surface area (double for most any given space) can more than make up for it.

The few times when my screen came loose in my dump tray, it floated to the top of the water as it rose and fell because of trapped bubbles. When that happened, the algae at the narrow end turned yellow at the highest point because the water was rushing under it.

I had to fix the design to make sure that didn't happen. I think that some of this can happen with all designed until you tweak it in.
 
if yuo harvest it every week you'd need ALOT of growth to actually have pieces die in that short of time and start loosing alage. it would ahve to get very heavy on the outside due to the 3d growth.
If that happened the easy fix would be to clean it every 5 days or so instead of every 7, that would be a great problem to have IMO becuase you are exporting so many nutrients at that point it's scary.
 
Paul B said:
It's actually very good. There are tiny arms sticking out of every nook and amphipods are all over the place. The corals are growing nicely especially the two SPS corals. There are 5 gorgonians that grew some this last few months and many of the fish are still spawning.
So the tank has not changed much in a couple of decades, except some aquascaping which is an ongoing battle due to spawning fireclowns who never like my decorating styles and dig such large holes that the rocks fall towards the front glass.
There is almost no algae now in my tank or algae trough and that is a concern, but a common occurance that will change depending on where I collect water from next summer.
Click to expand...

Tiny arms, Gorgonians(non-photsynthetic?), SPS corals, spawning fish, and a $5 ATS. Now that is impressive.

I remember reading your article in reefkeeping magazine "Baldassano's Reef - 40 Years in the Making" - great article and a real inspiration. Do you have a link to more recent and close up photos of your tank?

Staying with the algea scrubber theme, I run a Santa Monica 100 ATS in my 92aga corner tank, a 75 gal refugium with 3" sandbed mainly for pods, and that is it for filtration. I even owned a high end SWC 160 cone skimmer but eventually traded it away. The ATS works great for me but I have mostly softies being a newbee and all. The few SPS frags I have are growing fast though.

In your case, do you still attribute value to including an ATS in your water maintenance regimine? Do you run a skimmer in parallel or just the reverse plenum? I can't recall.

Can you imagine why SPS would be any more difficult to grow long term with an ATS in the mix for filtration (with skimmer or without)? There seems to be someone challenging the idea and I can't imagine why this would even come up. Perhaps you know of certain nagative situations? The SPS that Santa Monica has grow like wildfire with his ATS and feeding regimine.

Here is my tank. No water changes in a year but then again, I just started in this hobby a year and one month ago. :-)

picture.php
 
Chrissu, there are pictures on this very old thread. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1711320

I use a large homemade skimmer with a homemade surface skimmer they feed water to the algae trough. I believe even if there is almost no algae in the trough as now, the thing still helps with water management, if nothing else, it oxygenates water. It is free to run anyway and it was built mainly to eliminate cycles of hair algae that I used to get cycles of in this tank every few years. I don't remember when I installed the device but in the years that it has been there, there has not been hardly any algae growing in the tank but sometimes the trough is filled with it so it does accomplish the mission it was installed for. It also houses many amphipods.
I probably should install a new screen in it because the one that is in there is coated in coraling algae that would hamper algae from growing.
I don't see how a device such as this will hurt any corals from thriving.
I also use ozone in my skimmer and as a side benefit the trough will insure that any residual ozone does not enter the tank so I don't have to run it over carbon.
 
slot width

slot width

just found this thread and it is very helpful. In process of building and wondered how wide the slot should be. Made mine about 3/16 and used 2 plastic canvas(pin head size hole) with the bigger plastic in the middle. thought this would allow cleaning options. Biggest problem is even flow down all parts of the screen.
 
YouTube videos of screen cleaning

YouTube videos of screen cleaning

Been a while since I posted here - been too busy!! I swapped out the ATS box on the reef tank I maintain and have done a couple cleanings. I made a video series of the first cleaning for those of you interested.

This cleaning was done after 9 days of growth. Yesterday I did the 2nd one after 7 days, and the growth was a lot more, unbelievably.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9q6exxX2Hs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbwAyVu87fk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb_kSnS8Tcc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJOx1KsQHIE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FOFZMBQI0k

And a video tour of the tank...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdH2I8RWNFs
 
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